002: Murder, They Wrangled

[terrymixon]

Just to be clear, I'm holding further action until you have a talk about Roscoe and make a decision on what the group thinks best to do about him. The ball is in your court.

[Tiglath]

"As far as consequences, to all evidence it was an accident. If there is a fine, I'll pay it. If someone comes looking to arrest someone, they have me. I knew the risks and weighed them. I acted while you sat on your behind and want to be an armchair quarterback"

He stepped away toward the office. "The difference between us is that I'm not so jaded that I think my crap doesn't stink. You talk a good patter, but while we each might seek vengeance, I do it because Mad Dog meant something to me. For you, he was an acquaintance that dropped a lot of money in your lap and the payback is more rote than revenge. We are not alike."

And with that, he's gone with Jaelah following.

"This is subroutine Roscoe Aught One. My primary consciousness has engaged his privacy filter and is not monitoring this area of the ship and will not be notified of anything said here, including attempts to address him directly. If there is an emergency, he will be notified at once. Have a nice day."

"Spicoli shakes his head and says to whoever is still around, "See?"

Garvin offers a rhetorical (but of course actual) reply to the departed (yet omnipresent) Roscoe "Jaded? You remind me of the kind of "knee jerk brutal" new wave gangsters I ruddy loathe. You picked maimin' a bloke as your "go to" menu choice when control of everythin' in your environment at will gave you every other option! Then you 'ave the ruddy nerve to complain that I didn't do enough despite those on the team most qualified in law enforcement interaction bein' fully engaged? I'll tell you what - you can fek right off!"

To those at the bar he opines "I suppose that when you can do almost any task expertly and effectively at will there might be an expectation that other folk can too. When you control every aspect of an environment you really are... a god. However, I think Metz really has created a truly... human one... ".

"Roscoe didn't listen to a word I said...". (see first para of Garvin's reply) He gives a wry smile and chuckles "I suppose that's arguably 'is most definitively "divine" trait. As is I quite fancy tryin' out the TAS - just for a change of surveillance agency an' the reassurin' knowledge that the bidet won't kill me. As far as the Guild goes I'm ready to cash out".

Observing Arkar's attempted "cheffery"(???) he comments "Arkar, mate! Switch "Stuart" the steward on! 'E just does all we need 'im to do an' nothin' else - now there's a reassurin' concept"

To Walter he says "Nice verse. I'll drink to Mad Dog but me an' Roscoe seem to be enjoyin' artistic differences currently - so 'e can go an' fek 'imself. Cheers!"

(OOC: Roscoe seems suddenly anti Garvin which is of course immediately reciprocated by the (previously pro Roscoe) Garvin. However as per the current situation Garvin's now in the "luddite" camp with Spicoli!)

[terrymixon]

"As far as consequences, to all evidence it was an accident. If there is a fine, I'll pay it. If someone comes looking to arrest someone, they have me. I knew the risks and weighed them. I acted while you sat on your behind and want to be an armchair quarterback"

He stepped away toward the office. "The difference between us is that I'm not so jaded that I think my crap doesn't stink. You talk a good patter, but while we each might seek vengeance, I do it because Mad Dog meant something to me. For you, he was an acquaintance that dropped a lot of money in your lap and the payback is more rote than revenge. We are not alike."

And with that, he's gone with Jaelah following.

"This is subroutine Roscoe Aught One. My primary consciousness has engaged his privacy filter and is not monitoring this area of the ship and will not be notified of anything said here, including attempts to address him directly. If there is an emergency, he will be notified at once. Have a nice day."

"Spicoli shakes his head and says to whoever is still around, "See?"

Garvin offers a rhetorical (but of course actual) reply to the departed (yet omnipresent) Roscoe "Jaded? You remind me of the kind of "knee jerk brutal" new wave gangsters I ruddy loathe. You picked maimin' a bloke as your "go to" menu choice when control of everythin' in your environment at will gave you every other option! Then you 'ave the ruddy nerve to complain that I didn't do enough despite those on the team most qualified in law enforcement interaction bein' fully engaged? I'll tell you what - you can fek right off!"

To those at the bar he opines "I suppose that when you can do almost any task expertly and effectively at will there might be an expectation that other folk can too. When you control every aspect of an environment you really are... a god. However, I think Metz really has created a truly... human one... ".

"Roscoe didn't listen to a word I said...". (see first para of Garvin's reply) He gives a wry smile and chuckles "I suppose that's arguably 'is most definitively "divine" trait. As is I quite fancy tryin' out the TAS - just for a change of surveillance agency an' the reassurin' knowledge that the bidet won't kill me. As far as the Guild goes I'm ready to cash out".

Observing Arkar's attempted "cheffery"(???) he comments "Arkar, mate! Switch "Stuart" the steward on! 'E just does all we need 'im to do an' nothin' else - now there's a reassurin' concept"

To Walter he says "Nice verse. I'll drink to Mad Dog but me an' Roscoe seem to be enjoyin' artistic differences currently - so 'e can go an' fek 'imself. Cheers!"

(OOC: Roscoe seems suddenly anti Garvin which is of course immediately reciprocated by the (previously pro Roscoe) Garvin. However as per the current situation Garvin's now in the "luddite" camp with Spicoli!)

Alas, Roscoe can't hear you and your eloquent slam of him. Seems fair that he didn't listen to a word you said, since he'd say the same. Maybe the two of you are more alike than not.

The power is in your hands. If anyone decides they want out, Roscoe and Metz will depart and the game will continue without them, for good or ill.

[joertexas]

Noting that nobody reacted positively to his speech or toast, Walt will finish the toast, look around, shake his head in disgust, and walk first to his room then to the cargo bay to join Doc. As he walks past the common room… ”Bigoted and ungrateful ‘partners’.”

Jaelah looks up from her notes. "I do hope you're not referring to me." She shakes her head and raises her voice to be heard. "I believe we need to go after Mad Dog's killers as soon as we can load our cargo and depart."

[terrymixon]

Noting that nobody reacted positively to his speech or toast, Walt will finish the toast, look around, shake his head in disgust, and walk first to his room then to the cargo bay to join Doc. As he walks past the common room… ”Bigoted and ungrateful ‘partners’.”

Jaelah looks up from her notes. "I do hope you're not referring to me." She shakes her head and raises her voice to be heard. "I believe we need to go after Mad Dog's killers as soon as we can load our cargo and depart."

The cargo has been loading and is compete. All supplies are on board. You can leave at any time, if you still have a pilot when this is all done. Hiring a new one on short notice might be… challenging.

[helvorn]

OOC: just catching up now to several pages of posts, all good stuff.

Silencer raises his glass to Walter's toast. "Here, here! Well said Walter." He turned to the others. "Roscoe may be powerful because of his knowledge and connections but he has never been anything but straight up with us and a good comrade. He is loyal; that we can see from his reaction to Mad Dog's murder. I for one think that he would be as loyal and capable of a companion as we can ask for. Certainly we can argue ethics and judgment but those things are going to be raw and ugly for a time until we truly meld together as a team. I for one will depart with Roscoe and Metz if we can't come to an agreement." He stood up and tossed back his drink. "I have a need to talk to Roscoe before we all vote but vote we must tonight rather than scurrying off and avoiding the problem."

[Eris]

OOC: You think Spicoli is a luddite? Not so. He simply believes in checks and balances and thinks Roscoe's tight integration with the ship's systems is a dangerous situation. It needs to be balanced...somehow.

"Ship, three things. First, is your list of emergencies exhaustive, or are there emergency situations not on your list and if one of the owners of this ship declare such an emergency what would be your response?"

"Second, to what degree will you comply with an order given you by an owner of this ship? Fully or limited by your assessment of the situation?"

"Thirdly, will you record what we are saying here, please."

Turning to the others in the room Spicoli says, "I think everyone is getting this wrong. I think some of you think I'm Anti-Roscoe. I'm not! I don't think anyone here is really against Roscoe, the sentient being."

"I have concerns about the integration of the ship's systems with a sentient being, though. I'd have the same concerns if Walter or Jaelah or Metz was this tightly integrated with the ship." Spicoli shakes his head at this, "It's not machines I don't trust, it's humans...sentient beings."

"Now it seems to me that Roscoe in whatever form he takes is very much a human being with all the strengths and weaknesses that sentience gives one." Spicoli closes his computer and sits back, "He acts human. He takes actions that concern all of us without consultation with any of us. He wants revenge for his friends death. When he's yelled he shows every sign of getting mad and goes off to pout in his room."

"Damn, if it don't sound a lot like something one of us would do, huh?"

"Hell, suppose I had decided to order the bots to drop a box on that cop, crooked or not...and we all knew he was crooked. I'd have put everyone in danger of being arrested, if not shot. I'd probably not done it as well as Roscoe and probably botched it, but the point is, even if it worked out you'd have had every right to tear me a new one and I'm sure you'd have done just that!"

"Maybe I'd have stormed out and locked myself in my cabin, too? Very human."

"Maybe Roscoe will be remarkably stable, totally immune to bad influences, never make a mistake, and always choose the right path." Spicoli sighs, "But that describes none of us nor any other sentient being that has ever lived. Every one of us has had a lifetime of chances to screw things up, and we all have. From those screw ups we learned. Roscoe hasn't had time to learn any of that yet."

"We learned that when we screw up bad things happen. And when, not if, Roscoe screws up up bad things will also happen. What I want to try to achieve is to decouple the potential for a screw up becoming the bad thing to end all things."


"Roscoe needs to be in on this discussion, so does Dr Metz, so do we all!. We are all partners in this Guild and as such we should all be discussing the way the Guild will be organized, the rights, responsibilities and the limitations we agree to impose upon each other. Every partner should be here to have their say!"

OOC: If I'm jumping the gun here ignore the following, but this is what Spicoli wants to do.

"Computer, transmit over the ship's Intercom to the location of all Partners in the Guild and overriding all restrictions the following..."

"An Emergency Partner's Meeting is called in the ship's Common Room to commence in 10 minutes. All partners of the Guild need to attend to discuss organization, rights, responsibilities and limitations upon actions by Guild members. Doesn't matter how mad, pissed off, or hurt your feelings are, you need to be at this meeting! Damn it!"

[Thumper]

Jaelah looks up from her notes. "I do hope you're not referring to me." She shakes her head and raises her voice to be heard. "I believe we need to go after Mad Dog's killers as soon as we can load our cargo and depart."

”You weren’t here for some of the discussion, so I don’t know your position. So no, Jaelah.”

[joertexas]

”You weren’t here for some of the discussion, so I don’t know your position. So no, Jaelah.”

Jaelah smiles slightly. "I support Roscoe in his current role. I think he has a lot to learn, but he's as trustworthy as any other ship's computer. Look, I know that no one is happy about the incident with the cops. For the moment, though, can we focus on getting out of here before something else happens?"

[joertexas]

"An Emergency Partner's Meeting is called in the ship's Common Room to commence in 10 minutes. All partners of the Guild need to attend to discuss organization, rights, responsibilities and limitations upon actions by Guild members. Doesn't matter how mad, pissed off, or hurt your feelings are, you need to be at this meeting! Damn it!" [/dialog]

Jaelah speaks up. "Roscoe, I second this request and the override".

[Thumper]

“Now you’re playing a different or a more complete tune, Spicoli. If I were you, I would think carefully on what it is you truly wish to say in this meeting. Words have meaning.

You fear power. You should. Rare is the person who holds power and maintains altruism. Actually, very rare. But it does and can happen. It, too, is part of the human/sentient experience. To date, Roscoe has demonstrated great power. Precise and, in my mind, well considered. You might do well to discuss this topic in terms of likely potential for power corruption while acknowledging that some responsibly wield greater power than others. We won’t raise our collective strength and welfare by unnecessarily cutting the power or strength of a member of the guild…unless we see that power irresponsibly used. I can and will debate the merits of what transpired with Cordova.

As for absolute power corrupting absolutely…I wholly agree. That’s why good men of power have historically self-limited the amount of power they wield or seek. If you think Roscoe’s powers are or approach absolute, it must be addressed … as limits to power. It because a non-human sentience wields them.

Earlier, a restriction was unilaterally imposed (and therefore non-binding) that Roscoe had to clear a trade decision with a Human. That kind of talk won’t fly with me. That was an on overreach of power even bigger than anything Roscoe has done since I’ve met him. A human decision is no less or more fallible than his. Consulting with a team mate to gain collective intelligence rather elite intelligence is wise and prudent…for anybody. Rule and limitations should, therefore, apply equally across, agnostic of the form of sentience.

Otherwise, the discussion is entered with bigotry in one’s heart.”

Following Spicoli and Jaelah’s intercomm call:

“Please stop treating him as just a machine at just a computer.”

Standing, Walt walks the short distance to the Captain’s office, knocks and enters, and says:

“Roscoe, your presence is required at an emergency meeting of the guild.”

[ateno]

Arkar shows up in ship shoes, changing out of the slippers.

"I pretty much agree with everything said. Everyone fears the new, its human. None of us would have spent all our money like Roscoe, hopefully its works out. And I can't say 100%, but if someone I considered a true friend had died and I knew the someone was available to take reprisal on."

Arkar shakes his head.

"I don't know, I think what Roscoe did was to quick and not thought out well in a social construct way. He's like a new appointed officer that knows the way, but needs tempering. I am willing to help with that.
Hell I started out immediately with the tip."

Arkar

[terrymixon]

Arkar shows up in ship shoes, changing out of the slippers.

"None of us would have spent all our money like Roscoe, hopefully its works out."

Less than half once I fixed my math screwup, but you’re not wrong.

[Thumper]

Walt returns to the common room and says, “Once every member of the guild is assembled, I’d like to be the first to speak.”

Then he walks off to personally summon Doc Metz.

[Tiglath]

Jaelah smiles slightly. "I support Roscoe in his current role. I think he has a lot to learn, but he's as trustworthy as any other ship's computer. Look, I know that no one is happy about the incident with the cops. For the moment, though, can we focus on getting out of here before something else happens?"

Garvin arrives at the meeting wearing a casual jacket. It might be a fashion statement or sufficient to cover a shoulder rig.

When it's his turn to speak he says "I don't support 'im an' I don't mind admittin' 'e's got me rattled. Problem is we can't get out of 'ere before we fix the problem - because 'e is the problem. 'E's shown 'imself to be an impulsively violent romantic fool 'oo doesn't listen to advice an' does things 'is own overly self reliant way - much in the manner of a loose cannon or a wreckin' ball". He gives an ironic smile "These are exactly the same reasons why I shouldn't be runnin' the ship an' I equally vote myself out of that role. No matter 'ow long the odds of 'im droppin' another clanger are they become "odds on" when 'e's doing everything aboard all the time. To go on we need to cut 'im some slack and let in learn 'ow to be 'imself without runnin' the ship".

[Thumper]

Walt:
Members of the Guild. “It is the sad nature and disposition of nearly all sentients, once they have given power, to begin to practice unrighteous dominion”. So said an ancient Terran leader. The sad truth is, with rare and notable exceptions, sentiments of all types (human, Aslan, Vargr, etc.) abd throughout all ages become corrupted by too much power. Therefore, just societies seek to limit power imbalance through fail safe mechanisms…checks and balances.

That principle is inferred upon cyber-sentience, because we today have no precedent to refute the truism.

That, I believe is the crux of the problem we experience at this moment…a very real power imbalance and a fear of “power corrupting” and “absolute power corrupting absolutely”.

I have not witnessed Roscoe or, by extension, Doc Metz, overstepping the realm of reasonableness. The incident with Cordova can be debated separately.

At issue is general society’s fear of power and how to limit it and its use to acceptable levels. Yes, Roscoe, you have invoked fear among most of the guild. Just by the power imbalance present. I vehemently oppose the way in which this subject arose and was communicated. It was disrespectful of another “living” sentient.

I can however understand their fear at the philosophical level. I disagree intellectually and have chosen to trust until proven otherwise. Others who perceived the Cordova incident as a mistake see it differently. I can understand that point of view.

So, at question is what to do. Part ways? (I have much to say about that should it be decided). Seek mutually acceptable limits to Roscoe’s powers without altering fundamentally who and what he is? Is there another way to address this? Help Roscoe learn ethics, morality, and political philosophy so he can use that education to self-restrain? There are writtings of many great leaders from he can learn who demonstrated such self-restraint. Ancient primitive hunan figures such as the enduring enlightenment figures, Locke, Russeau, etc. and men of who applied those principles…George Washington, Lafayette, Simon Bolivar, etc. … and modern examples. Plenty of examples from primitive to modern. That is my ambition…teach Roscoe. Give him a chance to emulate great historical figures. Let him grow. After all, there’s not a lot I can think of that he could do to us that a malicious human couldn’t.

As we discuss, please keep the topic civil, thoughtful, and respectful.

By the way, there is another digital sentience aboard who has witnessed the events of the last few hours. Doc and I assembled the panels from the crate found on Mar-Dog’s ship.it is an Ancient deconstructor/ fabricator. Her name is Bili. I’m not sure how her Ancient tech works but she sees around her and is aware of the recent hostility to Roscoe. What is said here will more than likely apply to and be perceived by her her too.

I wanted to start the discussion in such a way as to include and encourage everybody’s participation.

His best combination of Diplomacy and Persuasion:

[terrymixon]

While I’m not home to respond in detail, I will point out that these skills don’t work against PCs. They have to be convinced—or not—based on how they are moved by your words, not dice.

[Tiglath]

OOC: You think Spicoli is a luddite? Not so. He simply believes in checks and balances and thinks Roscoe's tight integration with the ship's systems is a dangerous situation. It needs to be balanced...somehow.

No Spicoli's not a luddite! It just seems that he and Garvin might be cast in the role of "angry locals with pitchforks and burning torches" on their way to some spontaneous civil disobedience chez Castle Frankenstein...

And I agree with your last above.

[Thumper]

While I’m not home to respond in detail, I will point out that these skills don’t work against PCs. They have to be convinced—or not—based on how they are moved by your words, not dice.

I get that, but NPCs are part of the discussion. Roll was really for them to understand the political philosophy and that fear felt by Garvin, Arker, and Jaelah is not completely irrational. Also that one who has tried to befriend and support them can feel that way to some degree as well.

[joertexas]

Garvin arrives at the meeting wearing a casual jacket. It might be a fashion statement or sufficient to cover a shoulder rig.

When it's his turn to speak he says "I don't support 'im an' I don't mind admittin' 'e's got me rattled. Problem is we can't get out of 'ere before we fix the problem - because 'e is the problem. 'E's shown 'imself to be an impulsively violent romantic fool 'oo doesn't listen to advice an' does things 'is own overly self reliant way - much in the manner of a loose cannon or a wreckin' ball". He gives an ironic smile "These are exactly the same reasons why I shouldn't be runnin' the ship an' I equally vote myself out of that role. No matter 'ow long the odds of 'im droppin' another clanger are they become "odds on" when 'e's doing everything aboard all the time. To go on we need to cut 'im some slack and let in learn 'ow to be 'imself without runnin' the ship".

Jaelah sighs. "Every life support system and every ship out there runs on intelligent systems. If we have Roscoe and Metz install a firewall that limits his actions that would violate the established standards for these less-capable systems, would that be good enough? That means, among other things, that we would have to designate someone as captain of this ship."