Still More Anything Goes

[onlyme]

We've been going went about this all wrong. I blame myself. [ Sighs ]

We need total surprise. An airborne attack. The Beasts will never expect it.


(if someone needed a movie quote to use in this situation...)

[Alethan]

I blame myself.

For what it's worth, I blame you, too.

[wolfpack]

I played a cleric but I have aquestion. Do ylou allow the fighters/ranger to have weapon specialization?

[Zhym]

Clearly this should have been a sci-fi adventure instead of medieval.

Nuke it from orbit. Only way to be sure.

[dmw71]

A few things might have helped. The 2E nerfing of Protection from Evil didn't help.

Sure, the 2E interpretation of the spell didn't help. It's hardly fair to blame everything on that fact, though.

And if we] were going to take on trogs in their lair, we really needed more than some of us to be third level.

Don't tell me. I introduced troglodyte raiding parties as a problem facing the town of O'Hare. At no time did I encourage or discourage the group from doing whatever they wanted to do. The ranger and halfling took it upon themselves to follow their tracks and seek out their lair. It also wasn't my decision to go back to the lair after escaping it the first time.

Thing is, I'm not sure where the fatal mistake was, other than "never fight trogs in their lair." Dungeon delving is such an integral part of AD&D that it's hard to say that merely entering a lair is something that we have should foreseen as folly.

Merely entering the lair didn't kill you. I can think of a lot of little individual decisions that didn't help matters, but that happens.

[dmw71]

I played a cleric but I have aquestion. Do ylou allow the fighters/ranger to have weapon specialization?

Only fighters or rangers. See: Weapon Specialization

[Zhym]

Sure, the 2E interpretation of the spell didn't help. It's hardly fair to blame everything on that fact, though.

I'm not blaming everything on that. The TPK was a result of a lot of little things. That was one of them.

And if we were going to take on trogs in their lair, we really needed more than some of us to be third level.

Don't tell me. I introduced troglodyte raiding parties as a problem facing the town of O'Hare. At no time did I encourage or discourage the group from doing whatever they wanted to do. The ranger and halfling took it upon themselves to follow their tracks and seek out their lair. It also wasn't my decision to go back to the lair after escaping it the first time.

True. But those raiding parties were a serious and persistent threat. It was only logical that the party would see that as the main threat to the town and look for a way to end that threat. The bad assumption was that the source of the threat was something the party could fight and live.

Thing is, I'm not sure where the fatal mistake was, other than "never fight trogs in their lair." Dungeon delving is such an integral part of AD&D that it's hard to say that merely entering a lair is something that we have should foreseen as folly.

Merely entering the lair didn't kill you. I can think of a lot of little individual decisions that didn't help matters, but that happens.

Perhaps, but I'd wager it's TPK for the party nine times out of ten if it tries to fight in that lair, no matter how it goes about it.

[dmw71]

The bad assumption was that the source of the threat was something the party could fight and live.

I guess you should be relieved it won't be Kendrick's problem for much longer as the plan for those remaining seems to be to escape, not rescue.

[wolfpack]

Perhaps, but I'd wager it's TPK for the party nine times out of ten if it tries to fight in that lair, no matter how it goes about it.

Our only real mistake was thinking the trogs were mostly gone (at least I did), that let us split the group. Even without splitting up though I still doubt we make it when being pinned in from both sides by superior numbers in just a couple of minutes.

[Zhym]

The bad assumption was that the source of the threat was something the party could fight and live.

I guess you should be relieved it won't be Kendrick's problem for much longer as the plan for those remaining seems to be to escape, not rescue.

To the extent the plan is even relevant anymore, I've assumed this was the outcome since the round after he went down in a TPK.

Perhaps, but I'd wager it's TPK for the party nine times out of ten if it tries to fight in that lair, no matter how it goes about it.

Our only real mistake was thinking the trogs were mostly gone (at least I did), that let us split the group. Even without splitting up though I still doubt we make it when being pinned in from both sides by superior numbers in just a couple of minutes.

Yeah, it's a touchy situation strategically. Too many narrow tunnels for a large party to be effective, but enough rooms for the trogs to surround smaller groups with massively superior numbers.

Also, this is an example of why paladins and cavaliers aren't always a benefit to a party. A party without them might have tried to seal up the entrances and moved on.

[dmw71]

Our only real mistake was thinking the trogs were mostly gone (at least I did), that let us split the group.

A good number of the original males were. Some were killed by the party during their raids (which is what I half expected the group to do -- hang out in O'Hare, look into other issues, defending the town against smaller raiding parties as they took place. While the entire game for the most part has been made up on the fly, I was really scrambling as a DM to create a troglodyte lair once the party elected to pursue that route.

After killing off those that you did that were part of the raiding party (or parties?), and what you did during your first visit, you really did make a lot of progress towards clearing it out. Unfortunately, left behind in the lair were the rest of the males that you hadn't already killed, all the females, plus the "leadership" which are the real toughies.

Again, the lair was not part of my plans for the group, it just happened.

Even without splitting up though I still doubt we make it when being pinned in from both sides by superior numbers in just a couple of minutes.

Two times the group got split up or pinned. During the first visit, the group passed the first corridor and ignored it. You ran into the primary problem further in, but leaving that corridor wide open gave the defenders an easy chance to pin you in.

Even after everyone escaped, the group split up during their second visit -- into three groups this time. I'm really not sure what I was expected to do? Gwillt and Grim notwithstanding, even after the two side groups met up again, the reason you're currently pinned is because the full chamber was never explored and the passageway to the northeast was, again, wide open for them.

I didn't go out of my way to make things difficult, but merely continued to present the situation to the group as they explored, and reacted to decisions the group made.

[onlyme]

I'm really not sure what I was expected to do?

Quite obviously, had you just placed a wheelbarrow in the cave, we could have gotten out.
That, or a lance shaft.

[Alethan]

I'm really not sure what I was expected to do?

Quite obviously, had you just placed a wheelbarrow in the cave, we could have gotten out.
That, or a lance shaft.

I mean, if only we['d] had a wheelbarrow, that would be something.

[onlyme]

I was going for a more subtle and refined movie reference... not just regurgitate it verbatim.

[Alethan]

I was going for a more subtle and refined movie reference... not just regurgitate it verbatim.

Hey, when you don't know it... Paraphrase!

[Zhym]

Now, now. Let's not bicker and argue about who quoted whom.

Wait, wrong movie.

[Rukellian]

Whatever did happen to Gwilt and Grim anyways? When they split up into their own thread, I've been sort of in the dark with their actions. I was hoping that we would bump into them or that they would come swooping in to save us from one of the skirmishes, but that was never the case.

Is this question still too early?

[dmw71]

Is this question still too early?

Just a bit. You may be finding out soon, though.

[ravenn4544]

Our only real mistake was

Never split the party!



Of course, that's all well and good in theory - but ya gotta let the character's do their thing too...

[wolfpack]

After killing off those that you did that were part of the raiding party (or parties?), and what you did during your first visit, you really did make a lot of progress towards clearing it out. Unfortunately, left behind in the lair were the rest of the males that you hadn't already killed, all the females, plus the "leadership" which are the real toughies.

What through me off was the bodies not being moved after 3 days and instead left to rot. I would have expected the trogs to clean out the bodies and not leave them to be in the way and invite predators into the lair. I thought there would not be more than a handful left and maybe a few random things like the spiders.

I was genuinly surprised when there were enough trogs to swarm us form two directions.