Is it feasible to run an evil alignment campaign?

[Alethan]

It was worth a shot...

And a worthy shot it was!

[Grognardsw]

Since this thread is about evil campaigns, it seems right to place this here too:

The Evil That Men Do.

This is an evil character campaign in competition with the Fellowship of Law group in the current War Is Hell: The Palace of the Silver Princess campaign ( viewforum.php?f=88 ). As mentioned in that campaign recruitment thread, the Balance between Law and Chaos in the war-torn realms depends in part on recovery of the Runestaff, a mystic artifact that readers of Michael Moorcock may recognize.

This party will play agents of Chaos bent on retrieving the Runestaff at all costs. It'll be third level evil characters or equivalent HD intelligent humanoid/monster (capable of cooperating within a group.) This campaign will be played in a private forum initially, then merging when the two parties run into each other. This is a home brew adventure merged with elements of the first edition of module B3, the unexpurgated, controversial first printing recalled by TSR for art and content deemed too racy for its day.



Rules: AD&D 1e, including Unearthed Arcana. For those who don’t have those books, OSRIC (free PDF at http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/d ... /OSRIC.pdf) can serve as a close-enough guide, though AD&D 1e charts, etc. will apply. And I’m available of course for any rules questions. House rules are minimal.

Players: up to seven

Posting Pace: I’d like to keep it fast paced, so once a day is preferable but of course it's flexible.

Character creation basics:
- Stats: 4d6, pick the best three, assign to desired ability, no modification. Include U.S. Dice Roller links.
- All races and classes open. Humanoids or intelligent monsters of 3 HD that are capable of cooperation will be considered.
- Third level character. XP will be minimum necessary for third level.
- Max HP for first level, roll for second and third level.
- One magical item each will be given, you decide the type (e.g. sword, ring, etc.), I’ll give the specific detail.

The Campaign Milieu: A fantasy world mash-up inspired by Michael Moorcock, Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, HP Lovecraft, and other writers of Appendix N, AD&D 1e DMG. This campaign is Rated R.

"Know, oh reader, that between the years when the oceans drank Greyhawk and her gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Chaos, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars. In those days war raged far and wide as the forces of Chaos sought to overturn the Cosmic Balance. Striding forth to bring terror and destruction upon the land was a group of evil adventurers. In competition with the Fellowship of Law, the Chaos agents have been tasked to retrieve an artifact that could break Chaos' tightening grip on the Realms. Fear their approach, tremble in their presence, for you shall know them by the trail of blood..."



“In those days there were oceans of light and cities in the sky and wild flying beasts of bronze. There were herds of crimson cattle that roared and were taller than castles. There were shrill, viridian things that haunted bleak rivers. It was a time of gods, manifesting themselves upon our world in all her aspects; a time of giants who walked on water; of mindless sprites and misshapen creatures who could be summoned by an ill-considered thought but driven away only on pain of some fearful sacrifice; of magics, phantasms, unstable nature, impossible events, insane paradoxes, dreams come true, dreams gone awry, of nightmares assuming reality.” (Michael Moorcock, The Knight of Swords)

[Landifarne]

Ack, here's an evil-centered campaign proposal that I did a couple months ago on DF:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 42&t=63138

In it I detail the restrictions/limitations of such a game.

[Grognardsw]

That's impressive Landifarne in its detail!

[Spiderdown]

Villlains By Necessity might be helpful in this case

Technically in this situation the "evil" characters were trying to save the world for self-centred reasons (i.e. not wanting to die) so it's a bit sketchy, but it's worthwhile reading anyway.

[Magnus]

I did an evil game a few years ago, which was very successful while it lasted.

It was in 3E, but the RP structure is applicable to any edition, and most systems.

The Cliffs' Notes are that three characters played a group of LE wizards working towards a common goal. The remainder of the players acted as their bodyguards, slaves, etc. (Which, in and of itself, was a great exercise in true roleplaying. It's great when every player does not insist on being the star every time.)

What made it work (apart from great players) was that the group took the LAWFUL to heart as much as the evil, and acted out their evil whims against the environment as opposed to each other. They also had character histories, attributes (primarily high INT), and motivations for working together that held up in-game.

Here it is: http://unlimitedrpgs.com/forums2/viewforum.php?f=214

[Note that the threads for Percutio and Feldspar are not applicable - they are a side action-oriented game.]

[slgarrett]

Nonsense, I've been running an evil campaign for a while now and it's been going well. You're partially right, though, an evil campaign is very much, in part, about coping with the consequences of one's actions. In this sense, if characters cope poorly with the consequences of their actions, then they can easily culminate with going out in a blaze of glory. Part of that is up to you, the DM, though. Their blaze of glory might not end in death, they might get locked up in the dungeon and put on trial. Then maybe you could throw a sleezy advocate NPC into the mix to get them off the hook. Maybe they get broken out of prison. A jail break is a great idea for an adventure.

My party is a bunch of pirates and yes they've sacked villages of halflings and sailed off with all their worldly possessions. They're always on the run from the king's navy. Sometimes not sometimes due to politics, they end up privateers in the kings navy... that all can change fast, though and without them knowing. Sometimes they're out following treasure maps. Interestingly, a lot of their evil doings are to other evil characters. Duplicitous and violent characters tend to spend a lot of time interacting with other duplicitous and violent characters, simply because other people don't want to deal with them. They're outcasts. Therefore, they're often double crossed as much as they're double crossing others. It's quite entertaining and sometimes things can get quite twisted around.

To have a good evil campaign, I've found there needs to be a few essential factors.

1) The players need to be good at hatching up their own plots. It's easy to be "good" just by being essentially passive. An evil character is someone looking to get the one-up on someone else. You can't be passive and do that. You have to sometimes be deceitful, underhanded, and aggressive. Passive players don't do that well. They're too "go along, get along." A good evil player is pro-active. In this sense, evil campaigning is almost a "DM's campaign," and most of the players should probably be good at DMing.
2) The DM needs to be willing to work with the players to work their plots and schemes into the adventure. Things don't necessarily have to happen all at once, but if the PCs have a scheme, you need to view that as more material with which to work with (i.e. oh wow! what a great idea for an adventure) instead of a disruption to their carefully designed over-arching story arc. In an evil campaign, the PCs are in the driver's seat much more than in a "good" campaign.
3) The DM needs to be comfortable with the PCs not always having precisely the same interests, and enjoys working that into the adventure. In an evil campaign, the PCs will probably not always work together. They might kill each other sometimes to get what they want. That's okay. Part of an evil campaign is double dealing and treason. PCs shouldn't be able to entirely trust the people they're surrounded by. It doesn't mean they can't work together, but it doesn't mean things can't change either. PCs might not like each other, and might often keep secrets from one another. They might throw one another under the bus from time to time. These are the kinds of people who don't really have "friends."

Honestly, I think a lot of people aren't cut out for evil campaigning. By it's nature, it tends to be a lot more adult. It's one thing to play goody-two-shoes heroic characters. It's another thing entirely to play morally ambiguous avenging anti-heroes, gangsters, assassins, thieves, devotees to frightening gods, and seekers of knowledge that man was not meant to know. Players need to be able to resist the temptation to play "evil-stupid." A lot of DMs can't do it either. They're often too inflexible and have insufficient life experience to create compelling evil adventures and NPCs. Evil campaigning is often a very emotional experience, because evil characters are, by their nature, self-centered. They're not really concerned with fairness, equality or rules. They're worried about what they want and need, all else be damned. The truth is that most people are pretty good in this world, and it's hard for them to step outside of themselves and "embrace the beast," as it were. Asking themselves, "what would a real evil bitch do here?" isn't in their nature.

Some parts of evil campaigning will be disturbing. What if, inspired by The Godfather, the DM creates an adventure where the rest of the PCs must hunt down another one of the PCs and kill them in order to stay in the good graces of the thieves guild? What if, an evil cleric seeks to summon an ancient demon and requires the blood of a a very specific infant to do it? Evil campaigning can be dark and frightening. The good news is that it's all a game, though, and at the end of the day you're just imagining stories. Not all stories have to be happy. A lot of D&D players are offended by that kind of thing, though, or at least uncomfortable. To really play an evil campaign, the whole group needs to be adult enough to know it's just a game. If that's not the case, then you're going to have a mess.

After reviewing the alignment descriptions from a few game types, I've noticed a common theme with the evil alignments. They all seem to self-destruct in the end, his/her evil causing his/her own demise; and maybe it isn't evil that is in place, but a corruptive way of looking at things, a needless greed or some other form of... not-goodness. From player experience, can any of you point towards an example of a successful campaign with evil alignment characters? Successful is subjective, I know, but you all know what I'm trying to get at. I also understand that there are many factors that would need to be considered, like the players and how they go about playing their characters, or the dm, even what kind of story is taking place in the game.

Your guys' thoughts on this? I would be very much interested in hearing what you guys have to say on this.

[GreyWolfVT]

After reviewing the alignment descriptions from a few game types, I've noticed a common theme with the evil alignments. They all seem to self-destruct in the end, his/her evil causing his/her own demise; and maybe it isn't evil that is in place, but a corruptive way of looking at things, a needless greed or some other form of... not-goodness. From player experience, can any of you point towards an example of a successful campaign with evil alignment characters? Successful is subjective, I know, but you all know what I'm trying to get at. I also understand that there are many factors that would need to be considered, like the players and how they go about playing their characters, or the dm, even what kind of story is taking place in the game.

Your guys' thoughts on this? I would be very much interested in hearing what you guys have to say on this.

I've never restricted alignments to non-evil before so I cannot say it's ever been an issue. However an entirely evil aligned theme game that I have yet to play in or run. It does sound like an interesting concept. I think the Book of Vile Darkness contains campaigns for evil aligned characters though I believe it is for the newer versions of D&D.

[slgarrett]

I've never restricted alignments to non-evil before so I cannot say it's ever been an issue. However an entirely evil aligned theme game that I have yet to play in or run. It does sound like an interesting concept. I think the Book of Vile Darkness contains campaigns for evil aligned characters though I believe it is for the newer versions of D&D.

I think in early editions of AD&D it was taken for granted that some or all characters in a party would be aligned with evil and/or chaos. It flatly states "All thieves are neutral or evil, although they can be neutral good (rarely), and of lawful or chaotic nature. Most thieves tend towards evil." (PHB, p. 27). There used to be a company called "The Thieve's Guild," which produced thieving related campaign material. Evil oriented thieves campaigns were definitely common. There, the typical adventure would usually be a "heist," and you'd try to steal something of great power or value from some heavily guarded location. The emphasis on heroic, good aligned characters and epic fantasy was, in my opinion, part of the white-washing of D&D that occurred in the second edition, largely in response to accusations that D&D was about satanism and cults. 1e AD&D frequently had a much more "low-fantasy" vibe, with sometimes morally ambiguous characters motivated mostly by treasure, unconcerned with any greater good.

[GreyWolfVT]

I've always disagreed with that statement in the book about all theives rarely being good I've always held Robin Hood as a Thief in my mind that was of good alignment. But then again if you consider his origin it might be that he was a fighter/Ranger class forced into a life of Thievery.

[Dizlexus]

I've always disagreed with that statement in the book about all theives rarely being good I've always held Robin Hood as a Thief in my mind that was of good alignment. But then again if you consider his origin it might be that he was a fighter/Ranger class forced into a life of Thievery.

robin hood - good analogy.
I agree. I would even say a good assassin (James Bond) should be considered.

[Grognardsw]

In light of this thread, I've opened up the private forum of The Evil That Men Do campaign to posters here in case any one was interested in viewing an evil PbP campaign...

viewforum.php?f=103

[Dizlexus]

In light of this thread, I've opened up the private forum of The Evil That Men Do campaign to posters here in case any one was interested in viewing an evil PbP campaign...

viewforum.php?f=103

I play in that one. It has been allot of fun.
If there is a draw-back to evil it is independence. In Grog's campaign, most of his evil characters want do do their own thing. Everyone motivated by greed , blood lust, and glory.

Wait, did I say that was a draw-back? Never mind!

[GreyWolfVT]

Lol says I'm not authorized to view likely because I joined the party that is not supposed to be viewing the evil campaign.

[slgarrett]

Yeah... but Robin Hood was one legendary character, hence if you think he's good, he's the exception that proves the rule. There is only one Robin Hood. If every thief was "Robin Hood-like" then thieves wouldn't be outcasts at all. Everyone would love to have a thief in their neighborhood, unless you were in the better part of town. I suspect many thieves would like to be seen as "Robin Hood-like" when in fact they're not really. They might even think of themselves that way, when in fact, they're just fooling themselves. From what I've read, there's a certain element of that kind of thinking in the Italian mafia's mythology. I also think Robin Hood is probably better described as some flavor of chaotic neutral, balancing his murder and robbing (evil acts) by charity (good act), and while having no respect for law at all. Whether you see him as good or evil, depends as much on who you are as anything else. He's a hero to the peasantry and a bane of the nobility. Additionally, a shrewd reading of the text would lead you to interpret it as the story of an avenging anti-hero trying to take back his property from francophonic usurpers. Robin Hood might be the hero of his story, but I'm not sure he was really such a "good" guy.

I've always disagreed with that statement in the book about all theives rarely being good I've always held Robin Hood as a Thief in my mind that was of good alignment. But then again if you consider his origin it might be that he was a fighter/Ranger class forced into a life of Thievery.

[GreyWolfVT]

I'm not exactly sure what stories you read about him but the ones I know are when he came back from the holly land he had lost his taste for killing and refused to kill but did try to protect the people from the tyranny of Prince John and The Sheriff of Nottingham. Doing things with out actually killing to rob the rich and give to the poor/needy. But yes I can see your perspective.

[slgarrett]

None of the stories I read ever said anything about renouncing violence.

I'm not exactly sure what stories you read about him but the ones I know are when he came back from the holly land he had lost his taste for killing and refused to kill but did try to protect the people from the tyranny of Prince John and The Sheriff of Nottingham. Doing things with out actually killing to rob the rich and give to the poor/needy. But yes I can see your perspective.

[MonkeyWrench]

None of the stories I read ever said anything about renouncing violence.

I'm not exactly sure what stories you read about him but the ones I know are when he came back from the holly land he had lost his taste for killing and refused to kill but did try to protect the people from the tyranny of Prince John and The Sheriff of Nottingham. Doing things with out actually killing to rob the rich and give to the poor/needy. But yes I can see your perspective.

I'm gonna have to agree with Slgarrett on this one, I haven't read anything on Robin Hood that would say he renounced killing or violence.

[GreyWolfVT]

Ever try watching some of the British tv shows and movies they do.

[slgarrett]

Try reading. Modern day Britain is wussy about violence. They try to make everyone into Dr. Who.

Ever try watching some of the British tv shows and movies they do.