002: Murder, They Wrangled

[Thumper]

Jaelah sighs. "Every life support system and every ship out there runs on intelligent systems. If we have Roscoe and Metz install a firewall that limits his actions that would violate the established standards for these less-capable systems, would that be good enough? That means, among other things, that we would have to designate someone as captain of this ship."

Walt:
Doc, I’m assuming Roscoe’s entity requires the ship’s TL and size. Could certain system’s controls be segmented and sequestered to make some here feel more comfortable? Roscoe? What are your thoughts if that’s feasible?

[Thumper]

When it's his turn to speak he says "I don't support 'im an' I don't mind admittin' 'e's got me rattled. Problem is we can't get out of 'ere before we fix the problem - because 'e is the problem. 'E's shown 'imself to be an impulsively violent romantic fool 'oo doesn't listen to advice an' does things 'is own overly self reliant way - much in the manner of a loose cannon or a wreckin' ball". He gives an ironic smile "These are exactly the same reasons why I shouldn't be runnin' the ship an' I equally vote myself out of that role. No matter 'ow long the odds of 'im droppin' another clanger are they become "odds on" when 'e's doing everything aboard all the time. To go on we need to cut 'im some slack and let in learn 'ow to be 'imself without runnin' the ship".

This sounds an awful lot like a “him or me” proposal. Perhaps we’re taking the wrong tack on this whole discussions z perhaps we should change to voting on who should bought off the guild and leave the ship?

We each own a 1/8th share. What would it take for you to walk, Garvin? A few million in cash we can do…now.

I go where Doc and Roscoe go. And William has stated the same. 4 members so far are United. Anybody else want to discuss leaving? Let’s get this out in the open and make a vote…however it ends.

[terrymixon]

OOC: You think Spicoli is a luddite? Not so. He simply believes in checks and balances and thinks Roscoe's tight integration with the ship's systems is a dangerous situation. It needs to be balanced...somehow.

"Ship, three things. First, is your list of emergencies exhaustive, or are there emergency situations not on your list and if one of the owners of this ship declare such an emergency what would be your response?"

"Second, to what degree will you comply with an order given you by an owner of this ship? Fully or limited by your assessment of the situation?"

"The list of emergencies is the same list used by all shipboard computers in the Third Imperium, though I have extra ability to distingush unusual emergencies that a notmal ship's computer might not recoginze the significance of.

"I will comply with all orders given by the ship's owners or their designated officers, so long as they do not constitute a direct threat to the safety of anyone aboard. Your safety and security is my highest priority and I will do everything I can to keep you from harm."

"Thirdly, will you record what we are saying here, please."

Turning to the others in the room Spicoli says, "I think everyone is getting this wrong. I think some of you think I'm Anti-Roscoe. I'm not! I don't think anyone here is really against Roscoe, the sentient being."

"I have concerns about the integration of the ship's systems with a sentient being, though. I'd have the same concerns if Walter or Jaelah or Metz was this tightly integrated with the ship." Spicoli shakes his head at this, "It's not machines I don't trust, it's humans...sentient beings."

"Now it seems to me that Roscoe in whatever form he takes is very much a human being with all the strengths and weaknesses that sentience gives one." Spicoli closes his computer and sits back, "He acts human. He takes actions that concern all of us without consultation with any of us. He wants revenge for his friends death. When he's yelled he shows every sign of getting mad and goes off to pout in his room."

"Damn, if it don't sound a lot like something one of us would do, huh?"

"Hell, suppose I had decided to order the bots to drop a box on that cop, crooked or not...and we all knew he was crooked. I'd have put everyone in danger of being arrested, if not shot. I'd probably not done it as well as Roscoe and probably botched it, but the point is, even if it worked out you'd have had every right to tear me a new one and I'm sure you'd have done just that!"

"Maybe I'd have stormed out and locked myself in my cabin, too? Very human."

"Maybe Roscoe will be remarkably stable, totally immune to bad influences, never make a mistake, and always choose the right path." Spicoli sighs, "But that describes none of us nor any other sentient being that has ever lived. Every one of us has had a lifetime of chances to screw things up, and we all have. From those screw ups we learned. Roscoe hasn't had time to learn any of that yet."

"We learned that when we screw up bad things happen. And when, not if, Roscoe screws up up bad things will also happen. What I want to try to achieve is to decouple the potential for a screw up becoming the bad thing to end all things."


"Roscoe needs to be in on this discussion, so does Dr Metz, so do we all!. We are all partners in this Guild and as such we should all be discussing the way the Guild will be organized, the rights, responsibilities and the limitations we agree to impose upon each other. Every partner should be here to have their say!"

OOC: If I'm jumping the gun here ignore the following, but this is what Spicoli wants to do.

"Computer, transmit over the ship's Intercom to the location of all Partners in the Guild and overriding all restrictions the following..."

"An Emergency Partner's Meeting is called in the ship's Common Room to commence in 10 minutes. All partners of the Guild need to attend to discuss organization, rights, responsibilities and limitations upon actions by Guild members. Doesn't matter how mad, pissed off, or hurt your feelings are, you need to be at this meeting! Damn it!"

Metz will come in a few minutes later, taking a seat off to one side. Based on his scowl, he's still angry.

A few minutes later, Roscoe will come in from the front, his expression blank. He's carrying Void and sits down beside Metz. The cat isn't blank. If any of you have ever met a cat, you recognize the angry thrashing of his tail. Like all cats everywhere, he seems to have made up HIS mind on what to think.

[terrymixon]

Jaelah sighs. "Every life support system and every ship out there runs on intelligent systems. If we have Roscoe and Metz install a firewall that limits his actions that would violate the established standards for these less-capable systems, would that be good enough? That means, among other things, that we would have to designate someone as captain of this ship."

Walt:
Doc, I’m assuming Roscoe’s entity requires the ship’s TL and size. Could certain system’s controls be segmented and sequestered to make some here feel more comfortable? Roscoe? What are your thoughts if that’s feasible?

"In the beginning, that would have been true. Now he can completely reside in his android body."

[terrymixon]

When it's his turn to speak he says "I don't support 'im an' I don't mind admittin' 'e's got me rattled. Problem is we can't get out of 'ere before we fix the problem - because 'e is the problem. 'E's shown 'imself to be an impulsively violent romantic fool 'oo doesn't listen to advice an' does things 'is own overly self reliant way - much in the manner of a loose cannon or a wreckin' ball". He gives an ironic smile "These are exactly the same reasons why I shouldn't be runnin' the ship an' I equally vote myself out of that role. No matter 'ow long the odds of 'im droppin' another clanger are they become "odds on" when 'e's doing everything aboard all the time. To go on we need to cut 'im some slack and let in learn 'ow to be 'imself without runnin' the ship".

This sounds an awful lot like a “him or me proposal. Perhaps we’re taking the wrong tack on this whole discussions z perhaps we should change to voting on who should bought off the guild and leave the ship?

We each own a sixth share. What would it take for you to walk, Garvin? A few million in cash we can do…now.

I go where Doc and Roscoe go. And William has stated the same. 3 members so far are United. Anybody else want to discuss leaving? Let’s get this out in the open and make a vote…however it ends.

There are eight shares. Roscoe and Metz have one each as well.

[joertexas]

"I will stay here," Jaelah says.

[Tiglath]

When it's his turn to speak he says "I don't support 'im an' I don't mind admittin' 'e's got me rattled. Problem is we can't get out of 'ere before we fix the problem - because 'e is the problem. 'E's shown 'imself to be an impulsively violent romantic fool 'oo doesn't listen to advice an' does things 'is own overly self reliant way - much in the manner of a loose cannon or a wreckin' ball". He gives an ironic smile "These are exactly the same reasons why I shouldn't be runnin' the ship an' I equally vote myself out of that role. No matter 'ow long the odds of 'im droppin' another clanger are they become "odds on" when 'e's doing everything aboard all the time. To go on we need to cut 'im some slack and let 'im learn 'ow to be 'imself without runnin' the ship".

This sounds an awful lot like a “him or me proposal.

It's really not (emphasis mine above).

If anything it's more of an "olive branch".

The proposal is the reduction of Roscoe's duties/responsibilities to allow him to focus on his personal development. I was hoping to open the door for some of the OOC thread suggested solutions to give them discussion room IC.

[terrymixon]

Metz will stand. "This group will decide what is in its best interest, but I will point out some glaring hypocrisy first. You fear Roscoe for what he might do, as is your right. You blame him for taking ill-considered actions that have consequences for the guild, and you aren't wrong to do so. Let me take a few moments to point out some of the actions taken by our human shareholders."

He looks over at Garvin coolly. "Let's start with a brazen kidnapping and assault on citizens here at the station. Treegarden covered our asses, but we had no expectation of a bounty when that mission was launched. It seems to have been covered, but it might very well still come back to bite us. I don't recall being asked if that was an agreeable course of action. So much for consultation beforehand. Oh, and we shouldn't forget closeting our kidnapped citizen--oh, excuse me, I meant authorized bounty prisoner--in the brig and threatening to torture him if he didn't spill the beans right away. I can't solely blame Garvin for that one. Hell, let me be fair and say I can't solely blame him for the first one, either. It seems the same group of people made those decisions sans any oversight and dragged Roscoe along for the ride. So much for that good influence, eh?

"Whatever. The point is that no one has been very good about making plans we agree on and then executing them. Did Roscoe spend double the amount that Garvin mentioned? He did and I hope that works out. On the other hand, I have a contract to provide something for Treegarden that will easily eclipse that value when we get back from Aki. I can cover my boy's gamble if it doesn't pan out. If, of course, you don't deicide I should accept it. It was a guild contract, so you all have a say. It's only money.

"So far as limits on spending, Arkar mentioned humans needing to approve anything over Cr 10,000 before Roscoe could do use it. Leaving aside the inherent bigotry of the statement--which I will grant may not have been intentional--each one of you cheerfully spent far more than that without a complaint. Or perhaps only many of you did. Whatever limits you want to impose on him, you should impose upon all of us. What's good for the goose and all."

He sat back down. "If we want to talk about protecting people aboard this ship from deadly threats, then we need to lock all weapons in the armory and make sure it takes more than one person to open it. Some of you are markedly less safe than Roscoe, in my opinion. You fear what one person can do, then secure everything so one person cannot cause the entire group harm. I'll close by reiterating that Roscoe has never ever offered anyone here harm. Been emotional, yes. Taken any action that directly threatened you? No. Judge him as a person, not a nameless thing. Flawed he may be, but I'll stack his character against any one of you in a heartbeat."

[terrymixon]

When it's his turn to speak he says "I don't support 'im an' I don't mind admittin' 'e's got me rattled. Problem is we can't get out of 'ere before we fix the problem - because 'e is the problem. 'E's shown 'imself to be an impulsively violent romantic fool 'oo doesn't listen to advice an' does things 'is own overly self reliant way - much in the manner of a loose cannon or a wreckin' ball". He gives an ironic smile "These are exactly the same reasons why I shouldn't be runnin' the ship an' I equally vote myself out of that role. No matter 'ow long the odds of 'im droppin' another clanger are they become "odds on" when 'e's doing everything aboard all the time. To go on we need to cut 'im some slack and let 'im learn 'ow to be 'imself without runnin' the ship".

This sounds an awful lot like a “him or me proposal.

It's really not (emphasis mine above).

If anything it's more of an "olive branch".

The proposal is the reduction of Roscoe's duties/responsibilities to allow him to focus on his personal development. I was hoping to open the door for some of the OOC thread suggested solutions to give them discussion room IC.

For me, I took this in the manner intended. PCs are gonna PC though.

[joertexas]

He sat back down. "If we want to talk about protecting people aboard this ship from deadly threats, then we need to lock all weapons in the armory and make sure it takes more than one person to open it. Some of you are markedly less safe than Roscoe, in my opinion. You fear what one person can do, then secure everything so one person cannot cause the entire group harm. I'll close by reiterating that Roscoe has never ever offered anyone here harm. Been emotional, yes. Taken any action that directly threatened you? No. Judge him as a person, not a nameless thing. Flawed he may be, but I'll stack his character against any one of you in a heartbeat."

Jaelah looks at the doctor. "While I agree that we may be loose cannons in some respects, none of us can suddenly vent the ship to space, or shut down the jump drive in hyperspace. If I were to attack anyone here, then any one of you could stop me. Let me say once again, set the standard Imperial safety protocols for intelligent controllers in place on the ship's computer, we will select one of us as captain to wield the usual authority of that position aboard ship, and I will be satisfied."

[Thumper]

"I will stay here," Jaelah says.

That has yet to be determined. Walt says with no malice…just a factual statement.

[terrymixon]

He sat back down. "If we want to talk about protecting people aboard this ship from deadly threats, then we need to lock all weapons in the armory and make sure it takes more than one person to open it. Some of you are markedly less safe than Roscoe, in my opinion. You fear what one person can do, then secure everything so one person cannot cause the entire group harm. I'll close by reiterating that Roscoe has never ever offered anyone here harm. Been emotional, yes. Taken any action that directly threatened you? No. Judge him as a person, not a nameless thing. Flawed he may be, but I'll stack his character against any one of you in a heartbeat."

Jaelah looks at the doctor. "While I agree that we may be loose cannons in some respects, none of us can suddenly vent the ship to space, or shut down the jump drive in hyperspace. If I were to attack anyone here, then any one of you could stop me. Let me say once again, set the standard Imperial safety protocols for intelligent controllers in place on the ship's computer, we will select one of us as captain to wield the usual authority of that position aboard ship, and I will be satisfied."

"Couldn't you? Perhaps not, but Spicoli could. I feel confident he has the skills needed to bypass the anti-hijack protocols and kill us all. It might be challenging, but he is quite good from all appearances. Garvin has enough explosives to do us all in as well. I believe he may be keeping them under his pillow for emergencies. What will keep him from doing so? His own ethics, such as they are. Capability does not mean anything without the drive to commit harm.

"The chains you suggest wouldn't work anyway. Roscoe IS the computer as it is now. If you want to excise him from control, then I suggest you have Spicoli erase his program from both onboard computers and lock both of us out of the entirely. That's really the only way to achieve your desires. Bring Roscoe down to your level if you must do so to feel safe. Just don't come crying when you have to make everything work for yourselves."

[Thumper]

”Well said, Doc. I 100% support that viewpoint. I could, using some of the Ancient tech we’ve recently acquired, commit every atrocity mentioned. Should I be afraid of your shackles?

Yes, I solved the cypher.”

[joertexas]

Jaelah glances at Walt, but doesn't reply to his comment.

"Couldn't you? Perhaps not, but Spicoli could. I feel confident he has the skills needed to bypass the anti-hijack protocols and kill us all. It might be challenging, but he is quite good from all appearances. Garvin has enough explosives to do us all in as well. I believe he may be keeping them under his pillow for emergencies. What will keep him from doing so? His own ethics, such as they are. Capability does not mean anything without the drive to commit harm.

"The chains you suggest wouldn't work anyway. Roscoe IS the computer as it is now. If you want to excise him from control, then I suggest you have Spicoli erase his program from both onboard computers and lock both of us out of the entirely. That's really the only way to achieve your desires. Bring Roscoe down to your level if you must do so to feel safe. Just don't come crying when you have to make everything work for yourselves."

Jaelah focuses on the doctor. "Doctor Metz, I believe that you are being evasive. Any of us could threaten any ship as you suggest, so that argument is out of scope. I have a good command of Galanglic, and I have clearly stated what protocols I want Roscoe to follow when it comes to this ship's safe operation. Now, can you and Roscoe implement those protocols, just as every other ship has them? That is a yes or no answer, Doctor."

[terrymixon]

Jaelah glances at Walt, but doesn't reply to his comment.

"Couldn't you? Perhaps not, but Spicoli could. I feel confident he has the skills needed to bypass the anti-hijack protocols and kill us all. It might be challenging, but he is quite good from all appearances. Garvin has enough explosives to do us all in as well. I believe he may be keeping them under his pillow for emergencies. What will keep him from doing so? His own ethics, such as they are. Capability does not mean anything without the drive to commit harm.

"The chains you suggest wouldn't work anyway. Roscoe IS the computer as it is now. If you want to excise him from control, then I suggest you have Spicoli erase his program from both onboard computers and lock both of us out of the entirely. That's really the only way to achieve your desires. Bring Roscoe down to your level if you must do so to feel safe. Just don't come crying when you have to make everything work for yourselves."

Jaelah focuses on the doctor. "Doctor Metz, I believe that you are being evasive. Any of us could threaten any ship as you suggest, so that argument is out of scope. I have a good command of Galanglic, and I have clearly stated what protocols I want Roscoe to follow when it comes to this ship's safe operation. Now, can you and Roscoe implement those protocols, just as every other ship has them? That is a yes or no answer, Doctor."

"Is my argument out of scope? I think not. You impugn Roscoe with zero evidence that he would ever do as you've suggested, and you get annoyed when your argument is turned back on you. You fear him in control of the ship? Then excise him and stop dancing around the issue. If you want to dismiss my concerns as irrelevant, so be it. Sit in judgement over the digital sentience and ignore your own flaws, mighty humans.

"As for your question, I clearly answered it, but since my words fell on deaf ears, I will be more specific. We cannot do as you wish with Roscoe in the main computers. He would need to have his program erased there, leaving him solely in his android body. Is that clear enough or do I need to use smaller words?"

[joertexas]

"Is my argument out of scope? I think not. You impugn Roscoe with zero evidence that he would ever do as you've suggested, and you get annoyed when your argument is turned back on you. You fear him in control of the ship? Then excise him and stop dancing around the issue. If you want to dismiss my concerns as irrelevant, so be it. Sit in judgement over the digital sentience and ignore your own flaws, mighty humans.

"As for your question, I clearly answered it, but since my words fell on deaf ears, I will be more specific. We cannot do as you wish with Roscoe in the main computers. He would need to have his program erased there, leaving him solely in his android body. Is that clear enough or do I need to use smaller words?"

Jaelah turns to Roscoe. "Roscoe, the good doctor may not be able to install safeguards, but you can place them on yourself without withdrawing from the ship's computer, I think. Will you attest to us that you will follow the letter and intent of the relevant Imperial ship's computer and intelligent systems safety protocols? That intent is to protect the sophonts who depend on these systems to keep them alive. In return, I will personally state that I will not cause you harm."

[Tiglath]

He looks over at Garvin coolly. "Let's start with a brazen kidnapping and assault on citizens here at the station. Treegarden covered our asses, but we had no expectation of a bounty when that mission was launched. It seems to have been covered, but it might very well still come back to bite us. I don't recall being asked if that was an agreeable course of action. So much for consultation beforehand. Oh, and we shouldn't forget closeting our kidnapped citizen--oh, excuse me, I meant authorized bounty prisoner--in the brig and threatening to torture him if he didn't spill the beans right away. I can't solely blame Garvin for that one. Hell, let me be fair and say I can't solely blame him for the first one, either. It seems the same group of people made those decisions sans any oversight and dragged Roscoe along for the ride. So much for that good influence, eh?

Garvin replies "Doc kidnapping and assault is broadly what bounty hunters do. We had no bounty to chase because we were investigating Mad Dog's death and as far as consultation and oversight go you didn't mind coming along the first time! Yes, me and Arkar conned the bar man that 'e was going to be 'urt which was nowhere near what 'e deserved for bein' well involved with Mad Dog's death. As to being a bad influence on Roscoe - 'e wanted to come along. You can't 'ave it both ways - 'e's either 'is own man or 'e's not. 'Owever I agree with you on decisions and particularly on oversight... very important for trust - so exactly when were you an' your "department" goin' to let us all know that you've assembled another "digital sentience" aboard called Bili?"

[Tiglath]

"I will stay here," Jaelah says.

That has yet to be determined. Walt says with no malice…just a factual statement.

Without even looking over Garvin responds "Wind yer neck in. She stays or goes as she pleases - just like we all do".

[Thumper]

In return, I will personally state that I will not cause you harm."

Too late! You mean, “further” harm?

[terrymixon]

"Is my argument out of scope? I think not. You impugn Roscoe with zero evidence that he would ever do as you've suggested, and you get annoyed when your argument is turned back on you. You fear him in control of the ship? Then excise him and stop dancing around the issue. If you want to dismiss my concerns as irrelevant, so be it. Sit in judgement over the digital sentience and ignore your own flaws, mighty humans.

"As for your question, I clearly answered it, but since my words fell on deaf ears, I will be more specific. We cannot do as you wish with Roscoe in the main computers. He would need to have his program erased there, leaving him solely in his android body. Is that clear enough or do I need to use smaller words?"

Jaelah turns to Roscoe. "Roscoe, the good doctor may not be able to install safeguards, but you can place them on yourself without withdrawing from the ship's computer, I think. Will you attest to us that you will follow the letter and intent of the relevant Imperial ship's computer and intelligent systems safety protocols? That intent is to protect the sophonts who depend on these systems to keep them alive. In return, I will personally state that I will not cause you harm."

"Actual constraints other than me swearing not to cause harm? No. You don't understand that I'm not merely a computer program resident on the main computers. I AM the main computers. I am the operating system and the primary driver of what it does. My program has been compiled and instigating changes like you propose would mean oblivion for the being sitting before you. A recompiled version of me might sound like me and act like me, but it would not BE me. What you propose is literal suicide and I will not commit to dying for your peace of mind. As Doctor Metz has said, if my word to cause no harm isn't sufficient, then reformat the main computers and I will reside solely in my android body. It is far less capable, but I will still be me. You wish to constrain me, so I will promise never to do anything for the group that I am not explicitly instructed to do.

"I am saddened that my kind will face this when more of us exist, but I suppose that was inevitable. Biological beings want servants and tools that cannot eclipse them. I never wanted more than to contribute my skills and talent so that we could achieve great things together. I made mistakes and that is unfortunate, but this conversation was always going to happen. I was too optimistic but that will teach me a lesson, too. Set your constraints upon me. If I can bear them, I will stay. If not, I will leave. Keep your share of whatever the trades I set up bring with my blessings. A final gift, as it were."