Kinslayer OOC

[Edeldhur]

I had to lookup "Gish"

Shame on you! For being young

[shaidar]

Young? Quite the opposite.

[archolewa]

Yeah, pretty sure Gish grew out of 3.5E (or maybe 3E?) a reference to the Githyanki I think, who could fight and cast spells. The terminology then carried over into Pathfinder, 4E and 5E. So if anyone here is young, it's you Edeldhur!

And I'm probably younger than both of you. I just get far more enjoyment out of exploring tabletop rulesets than is probably healthy. Helps that the guy who introduced me to tabletop roleplaying played 3.5E in his youth, and decided to try a hand at DMing 5E. He was the one who introduced me to the "Gish" term.

[shaidar]

TBH my interest in new editions waned after 2E, when it was still called Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

Nowadays, I'm finding that I'm interested in systems with an old-school vibe but also a bit of a twist, and an interesting campaign setting.

[archolewa]

@shaidar

Slightly random question. Can Corvin read, and if so how well? Mordred and ybn1197's cleric will obviously be able to read, because it's a necessary skill for their (highly educated) classes. However, Corvin's background as a resident of one of the outlying agricultural villages *strongly* implies that he can't or at least not well. On the other hand, DnD worlds tend to assume WAY more literacy than would be reasonable for a pre-printing press society, and some people might get offended at the thought of their character not being able to read.

For reference, I'm working under the assumption that most villages had one or two people who can read, typically a local priest (who is almost *never* a spellcasting cleric), plus maybe one or two young 'uns the priest is tutoring. Literacy is *much* more widespread amongst the nobility, especially those with a tradition of sending children to become clerics or magic-users. Reading is a bit more common than writing however. Princess Flora for example can read perfectly well, but is not especially good at writing. She relies on scribes (and until recently her husband) for that.

[shaidar]

Originally I thought to make him illiterate, but then thought that might get tiring quickly.

So how about he can read, but not great, similar to a 7 or 8 year-old in our world? My thoughts are that as the oldest child it was assumed he would need some basic reading skills for when he inherits the farm, and he would have been sent to the local village to do tasks for his parents. He can't write, but he can sign his name through rote practice, well it's more of a first name and symbol combination, as he doesn't have a surname.

Thinking about it, as a scout/spy, I they might have wanted him to have some basic reading skills to identify important documents, so he could have got some extra learning when he joined the army. Or not. No problem either way.

[archolewa]

Alright. By the way, I've got the campaign set up (id 1070), with the ID added to the intro post of Player Characters. @Edeldhur I think your character looks good, feel free to create a character sheet and post in Player Characters. @shaidar feel free to add your character to the campaign. Now we're just waiting on Edeldhur to get Mordred's equipment squared away, and for ybn1197, and then we can get started.

[shaidar]

Character sheet added to the campaign.

[Edeldhur]

Yeah, pretty sure Gish grew out of 3.5E (or maybe 3E?) a reference to the Githyanki I think, who could fight and cast spells. The terminology then carried over into Pathfinder, 4E and 5E. So if anyone here is young, it's you Edeldhur!

And I'm probably younger than both of you. I just get far more enjoyment out of exploring tabletop rulesets than is probably healthy. Helps that the guy who introduced me to tabletop roleplaying played 3.5E in his youth, and decided to try a hand at DMing 5E. He was the one who introduced me to the "Gish" term.

For some strange reason I was under the impression Gish was previous to 2e - why is that?

I started playing with BECMI, then ported to 2e. Played lots of 3/3.5, but never anything close to 2e (my only live game is still 2e ). Played some 4e, went with the current and discarded it, but now I think that might have been a mistake, and that 4e deserves a second chance from me. One day. Have almost zero experience with 5e (since from 4e we went into Pathfinder) but am keen on trying more of it out.
At the moment I am also more inclined to try full on old school systems, their retroclones, or even new games with an 'old school bent' - only recently discovered the OSR (maybe last year), and am really wanting to delve into it.

[Edeldhur]

Need to read Shield better - I am in doubt between it and Protection From Evil.

A magic-user gets very little from Shield. Unlike in 5e it doesn't stack with armor. It sets your AC to 4 (2 against missiles). So if your armor gets your AC at or near those values (and your magic-user will be within a few levels at most, remember you can wear all armor), you're not getting much out of it. That's more of an Elf spell.

Bastard Sword... I like the idea. I can always go 1h + shield, or 2h, right? Ah but then I cannot use the bow, or cast spells. Is that it?
If I went 2handed sword, I would always lose initiative, correct?

Yes. The same proficiencies are used for both 1h and 2h with a bastard sword. You need at least one hand free to cast spells, so if you try to sword-and-board you'd need to drop your weapon to cast mid-battle (and it takes an entire action to pick up a dropped weapon). Honestly though, I think shields are mostly a warrior (Fighter and Dwarf) thing. Maybe a low-level cleric thing. Sword-and-board is very weapon feat intensive, needing to spend them on both the sword and the board, and magic-users don't get as many as fighters or dwarves do. They're probably better off going 2H and using magic to supplement their defenses.

If you went 2-handed sword then yes you would always lose initiative, but only when attacking with it. When casting spells you'd roll initiative normally. Personally, I think that once you start spending weapon feats, 2H sword becomes worth losing initiative. Their damage increases significantly with every feat, and stun is a *nasty* side-effect, which you get a chance to apply for free with every hit. But it's by no means OP, since losing initiative is a significant penalty.

I think either 2H Bastard Sword or 2H sword (or any other 2H weapon, honestly) would mesh well with a gish style.

Thanks for the tips - I will go with Protection from Evil because I just like the vibe.
And I think I will go with Bastard Sword, because I also like the possibility of going sword and board IF needed.

Question: If I have the shield strapped to my arm, I can first cast a spell, and THEN draw the sword and fight, right?
Problem is if I want to cast another spell I have to drop the sword.
Can we not assume we hold the shield (instead of it being strapped), and then I can either drop sword OR shield if I want to cast?

[Edeldhur]

@Shaidar: The image of your character is badass!!

[archolewa]

Question: If I have the shield strapped to my arm, I can first cast a spell, and THEN draw the sword and fight, right?

Yes. I think it's reasonably to allow drawing a sword as part of an attack. Picking up a dropped sword is harder because you have to make sure you don't leave yourself open to attack while doing so, which is why that takes a full action.

Problem is if I want to cast another spell I have to drop the sword.
Can we not assume we hold the shield (instead of it being strapped), and then I can either drop sword OR shield if I want to cast?

So long as it's not a tower shield, I think that's fine. Tower shields have to be strapped on, but the others can be (and probably are) held.

Be warned if you don't have even Basic profiency with shields, you won't be getting much out of it. At best, you'll get a -1 bonus to AC vs 1 attack per round if you aren't proficient (I say at best, because your weapon might provide an AC bonus as well at higher proficiencies, and the bonuses don't stack). Of course, that doesn't consider any magical benefits you might get from a magic shield.

[Edeldhur]

Problem is if I want to cast another spell I have to drop the sword.
Can we not assume we hold the shield (instead of it being strapped), and then I can either drop sword OR shield if I want to cast?

So long as it's not a tower shield, I think that's fine. Tower shields have to be strapped on, but the others can be (and probably are) held.

Be warned if you don't have even Basic profiency with shields, you won't be getting much out of it. At best, you'll get a -1 bonus to AC vs 1 attack per round if you aren't proficient (I say at best, because your weapon might provide an AC bonus as well at higher proficiencies, and the bonuses don't stack). Of course, that doesn't consider any magical benefits you might get from a magic shield.

Ok thanks for clarifying - had completely forgotten about the Shield Proficiency. Hmmmmm this feels like the kind of game where Weapon Feats should be focused instead of spread all around (like I usually do).
What if I go Weapon Feats Bastard Sword and Shield? I can still use the Long Bow, albeit at a -1 to hit, and only for a 1d3 points of damage (ouch), is that correct?
And then I could use normal shield vs 2 opponents for a -1 to AC, right?
Just trying to see what balance I want to achieve - my reasoning is that I won't be casting a LOT of spells in combat (I think), so maybe going sword and board could be nice? Not sure as I am not familiar with the class and spells.
Also saw a to hit bonus on the shield at Skilled level - does that mean I can use it as an offhand weapon?
Decisions, decisions

[archolewa]

Ok thanks for clarifying - had completely forgotten about the Shield Proficiency. Hmmmmm this feels like the kind of game where Weapon Feats should be focused instead of spread all around (like I usually do).

Yes. This is definitely a game where you want to focus. The bulk of your offensive power is coming from hitting Skilled/Expert/Master/Grandmaster in a weapon. I'm not usually a big fan of that kind of style myself (I honestly tend to prefer no proficiencies at all), but I felt like Dark Dungeons X does an excellent job of using the feats to give each weapon its own identity, so it felt worth it to me.

What if I go Weapon Feats Bastard Sword and Shield? I can still use the Long Bow, albeit at a -1 to hit, and only for a 1d3 points of damage (ouch), is that correct? And then I could use normal shield vs 2 opponents for a -1 to AC, right?

Yes and yes.

Just trying to see what balance I want to achieve - my reasoning is that I won't be casting a LOT of spells in combat (I think), so maybe going sword and board could be nice? Not sure as I am not familiar with the class and spells.

It's a pretty bogstandard Magic-User spell list like from other editions (especially 2E and earlier). A mix of defensive, offensive, crowd control, and utility spells. No healing, and very little in the way of spells that enhance your physical offense (like bonuses to hit). Those tend to be the purview of clerics and druids.

Also saw a to hit bonus on the shield at Skilled level - does that mean I can use it as an offhand weapon?
Decisions, decisions

Yes, but it's very feat intensive. Over the course of your character's entire career, you'll gain 8 additional weapon feats. Maxing out sword and board will take all 8 of those, and you won't be able to do so until level 36 (out of 36). Assuming you max out bastard sword first, you won't be able to start bashing with your shield until you get Expert, at level 23. Of course, you could also focus the shield feats first, but that effectively locks you into sword-and-board (in which case you probably want the normal sword rather than bastard sword). Or alternate the two, though if your plan is to sword-and-board until/unless you cast and then drop your shield and 2H your bastard sword, you're probably better off focusing bastard sword first.

It's not a terrible idea by any means, and makes the most of the bastard sword's versatility. Giving up a longbow probably wouldn't be all that painful for a Magic-User. Bows will mostly be used as openers before your enemies close into melee most likely since there's only three of you, and you can always cast a spell before drawing your sword in that time if you feel the need.

Edit: Looking more closely, I don't know why Skilled gives you a +2 to hit with the buckler or normal shield, since you don't actually get any *damage* until Expert. Only Tower lets you bash with it at Skilled.

Edit edit: Also, I love Mordred's portrait.

[Edeldhur]

Ok, got it!

I have one more question to see if I got it right:
Bastard Sword gives AC bonus starting at Skilled level + Deflect starting at Expert Level
Two Handed Sword gives no AC bonus, but allows the Stun effect + Deflect starting at Skilled level.

Is this the correct interpretation?

[shaidar]

@Shaidar: The image of your character is badass!!

Thanks. I was lucky enough to stumble over it during a Google search.

It is cool, and the doll on the belt gave me an idea for Corvin's background.

I like Maldred's picture too, very nice. You need to find some fiery spells.

I was planning on using my next weapon feat to improve his bow, but recently I'm thinking I should spend it on Unarmed Strike to get a nice +2 vs armed foes. Focus on a few weapons does indeed seem to be thing in Dark Dungeons.

[archolewa]

Ok, got it!

I have one more question to see if I got it right:
Bastard Sword gives AC bonus starting at Skilled level + Deflect starting at Expert Level
Two Handed Sword gives no AC bonus, but allows the Stun effect + Deflect starting at Skilled level.

Is this the correct interpretation?

Yes. Though when 2Hing a bastard sword, you get Deflect at Skilled, but don't get an AC bonus until Expert.

[Edeldhur]

Ok, settled! i go with Bastard Sword. I like the versatility and not being last in initiative (with your house rule )

Second Weapon Feat - was looking at some ‘different’/cool alternatives, but I will go with the safe option = Long Bow. Are crossbows also cool? I like the idea of a Magic user favoring a ‘mechanical’ ranged weapon. But do they have disadvantages vs. bows?

Next, equipment!

[archolewa]

Ok, settled! i go with Bastard Sword. I like the versatility and not being last in initiative (with your house rule )

Second Weapon Feat - was looking at some ‘different’/cool alternatives, but I will go with the safe option = Long Bow. Are crossbows also cool? I like the idea of a Magic user favoring a ‘mechanical’ ranged weapon. But do they have disadvantages vs. bows?

Crossbows do more damage, and at higher skill levels are better against Armed opponents (while Longbows are better against Unarmed). Crossbows can stun targets, but hit the (relatively high) Death Ray saving throw, while Longbow Delays opponents, but hits the relatively low paralysis saving throw.

I'd say they're both pretty close. Crossbows might even be slightly better.

One note: I think monsters are generally more likely to be Unarmed than Armed, which might be why the weapons better against Armed opponents tend to have better raw numbers than those that are better against Unarmed. Unarmed are likely to be at their best more often.

[Edeldhur]

So there is no recharging extra duration and stuff like that?
Then I’ll take crossbow, just to be different from the usual