Dialectic

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Re: Dialectic

#121 Post by tibbius »

Leitz wrote:Or +1d6 for each "success" of the supporting character, with a maximum supporters based on how many d6 the main character can roll initially? Thus a Master can integrate more help than a novice.
Trying to keep it short and simple ... though we could house rule this.
Leitz wrote:
Leitz wrote:If someone were Competent (2d6) wouldn't they reach Master faster than someone going from "Just has a relevant tool" to Competent? Is that what you want?
tibbius wrote:Yes. Tough to gain competence, somewhat easier to gain mastery.
I have found the opposite to be true, assuming one is in a position to learn something. I can teach an average person how to shoot, in a day. Becoming good takes a few more days, and after a few decades I'm still curious about what Mastery is. :)
An alternative perspective is that people set the bar really low for "competent" (as do these rules, honestly) and then think it's a long way to the next rung up. I shot for qualifications in the Navy. Although I could handle a gun and hit the target, I never thought of myself as "competent" in the sense of ready to reliably hit a target in combat. That would have taken significantly more training. Similarly, I have been taught how to disarm an opponent wielding a gun. That doesn't mean I can do it reliably (what I think of as competent). On the other hand, there's not much distance from reliably hitting a target or disarming an opponent under pressure, to mastering those skills.

I guess my take is that "competence" and "mastery" are indistinct terms, and that generally it takes longer to cross the threshold for performing a skill reliably than it does to ascend a few steps on the staircase toward mastery. In these rules I'm using mastery to mean a higher level of competence, not ultimate accomplishment.
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Re: Dialectic

#122 Post by tibbius »

WeirdTools0.6.pdf
Not-quite final draft of rules
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Here are the rules we'll be using. Everyone please confirm that you're ok with the following as tools that your character will have, keeping in mind the goals that they're trying to achieve.

Bran - the Tongue (he persuades others), the Heart (he cares for others), the Hammer (he's a builder), what else?
Marcus - the Head (he reasons through issues), the Sword (he's a fighter), the Back (he's a hard worker), the Horn (he's a leader)
Andrew - the Eye (he is good at research), the Head (he's clever), the Brush (he's an artist), the Amulet? (he has some little magic, if that's the way you want to go)

Once we're good to go with this, I'll narrate the next steps as far as I can. (MrStereo1, could you please make a roll for Marcus' use of the Horn to figure out whether he succeeds in training the militia? cybersavant, it's clear that Andrew finds something in his research; can you tell us what he finds?)

Sorry for the slow posting in the action thread. There's a lot to move with, I just have been obsessing on the mechanics.
Last edited by tibbius on Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dialectic

#123 Post by Leitz »

The last line in the right column says "Note there are nine tools always available to a character." Can you expand on that?

Do the earlier rolled stats give the characters advantages? Are there stats at all? Are the characters effectively starting fresh, with the three or four tools?

The tools and rolls seem geared towards taking control of the story, not resolving actions. Am I mis-reading, or is that the intent? Can someone hand the telling off to another character? For example, Bran goes to Andrew, and says "let's investigate these scrolls". Bran would have, at best, 1d6, where Andrew would likely have 3d6.

Sorry for the rushed answer, several things to get done this morning. :(

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Re: Dialectic

#124 Post by tibbius »

Leitz wrote:The last line in the right column says "Note there are nine tools always available to a character." Can you expand on that?

Do the earlier rolled stats give the characters advantages? Are there stats at all? Are the characters effectively starting fresh, with the three or four tools?

The tools and rolls seem geared towards taking control of the story, not resolving actions. Am I mis-reading, or is that the intent? Can someone hand the telling off to another character? For example, Bran goes to Andrew, and says "let's investigate these scrolls". Bran would have, at best, 1d6, where Andrew would likely have 3d6.

Sorry for the rushed answer, several things to get done this morning. :(
Thank you for giving me your thoughts. Especially when you have other stuff to do!

The nine always available tools are the Tongue, Ear, Heart, Spleen - top of the list, parts of the characters' own bodies. These are the ones that get impaired by complications causing physical injury.

There are no stats, just the tools - so in a sense the characters are starting fresh, defined by play.

My assumption is that if a player takes control of the story, they will tell it in favor of their character. As the new teller, they are free to hand it off to another player. Maybe the 2d6 to determine who goes next is not always needed.

At this point, given Bran's assistance for a situational advantage, Andrew would have 3d6 (using his Eyes) to research the scrolls. Later, when he's mastered the Eye, he would get 4d6.

I hope these mechanics will help us continue to tell a good story. If they don't work well for that purpose, we can relapse to what I was using before. A potential problem point I can foresee is the mandatory introduction of complications on a partial success - the only instance where I've tried that was in Sosan's conversation with Bran, about the spears and fish, and I'm not sure that was warranted by a roll so much as by my desire for some interplay between the characters to make Sosan more interesting. It also could get clumsy if we're waiting for a "third player" to narrate a windfall on a big success. So we'll have to see how this works.
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Re: Dialectic

#125 Post by tibbius »

I thought a bit more about the proposed rules, especially how player characters and their opponents sustain complications (e.g., injuries in combat). Still trying to fit it into a single page.

What I propose is that there are eleven different bodily tools, and each time a character takes a physical injury, 1d6 of those tools get impaired - the player chooses which ones. If a tool is impaired, only 1d6 can be rolled to use it or any other tool that requires it. Some bodily tools are required in order to use other tools outside the body, and some bodily tools are related so that impairing one impairs both. It should be possible to reason through those dependencies. For example, if you choose to impair the Fist, you also impair the Hand, and the Sword, and the Bow, and the Harp and the Hammer and the Brush, etc.

This makes the characters tough, if you're careful about what gets injured; or fragile, if too much stuff gets hurt. Some of the "bodily" tools are more mental or emotional than physical, and injuries to those represent the trauma of action / loss of morale.

Recovering from impairments takes time in the story, we can reason through how much time.

Your character dies only if that makes sense to you.

Please let me know your thoughts. Thank you for bearing with me as I struggle to fashion a tool for us all to build this story. My apologies that I'm not satisfied with the tools we have been using.
WeirdTools0.7.pdf
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Re: Dialectic

#126 Post by Leitz »

A couple of thoughts, though my brain is even mode scattered than this morning. Have been dealing with potential identity theft. :(

Instead of 1d6 parts being affected, just one per failure. That way the character can be bold and continue to risk, or be risk averse and flee. Likely each failure will make the situation quickly become worse, but heroic characters can stand it.

Since you're working on the rules, I'd suggest considering the "1 page" goal not in play yet. Do a second, or even third page, knowing that it's all drafts and will get trimmed down as we figure things out.

I do this sort of stuff when I wait. 8-)

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Re: Dialectic

#127 Post by Leitz »

A few more thoughts. You suggested:

Bran - the Tongue (he persuades others), the Heart (he cares for others), the Hammer (he's a builder), what else?

On Tongue, I see Bran as more a mildly charismatic visionary leader. He's not convincing people of his truth (Tongue), but inspiring them to a shared vision (Drum). Thoughts?

I'd add Back and Spear, though the latter wouldn't be as good as Marcus. Maybe 1d6?

Are we doing one story at the moment, or three?

Mr Stereo1, feel free to write Bran into whatever Marcus is doing. Bran will support Marcus and respects the older man's leadership.

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Re: Dialectic

#128 Post by tibbius »

ok - everyone please update your Personae with the tools you want your character to use.

I think we're doing one combined story. I'll cover the opponents and sometimes friendly NPCs, each of you contribute your characters' actions and sometimes friendly NPCs as well - if you're not sure what a friendly would do, or want a different take, leave it open and I'll write it.
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Re: Dialectic

#129 Post by tibbius »

Leitz wrote:A couple of thoughts, though my brain is even mode scattered than this morning. Have been dealing with potential identity theft. :(
Ah good grief, I just read this. I hope it all works out ... we had to refile our taxes a couple years ago because of that issue, it was a bit of a hassle. Fortunately that's the only fall-out we experienced.
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Re: Dialectic

#130 Post by tibbius »

Leitz wrote:A few more thoughts. You suggested:

Bran - the Tongue (he persuades others), the Heart (he cares for others), the Hammer (he's a builder), what else?

On Tongue, I see Bran as more a mildly charismatic visionary leader. He's not convincing people of his truth (Tongue), but inspiring them to a shared vision (Drum). Thoughts?

I'd add Back and Spear, though the latter wouldn't be as good as Marcus. Maybe 1d6?
Definitely up to you how to characterize Bran's strengths. Heart, Hammer, Back, Drum, and Spear would make five competencies, which seems like a little too much right now. But you indicated you'd be ok with 1d6 for Spear. That's what any character gets before they're competent, as long as they're holding the weapon.

Following from that thought, I am not sure whether "Drum" is a metaphorical tool or an actual physical object that you need to hold in order to use it - a totem embodying the ability of leadership. We're writing in the Late Bronze Age when (some scholars now believe) symbols had near magical significance. I kinda like the idea of Bran using an actual drum to rally people, but it's not something he's done yet in the story, whereas he has done a lot of persuasive talking trying to get people to share his vision of what's best - what I meant by "truth." In summary, that's why I suggested Tongue rather than Drum. But up to you.
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Re: Dialectic

#131 Post by Mr Stereo1 »

Sounds like a hell of a time, Leitz, good luck with that. Generally the banks people I know had to deal with were pretty understanding, but I'm sure everything's going to that much harder with the lockdown.

For the skills, lovely system there Tibbius. The good kind of simple with just enough evocative concepts behind the skills to read more meaning into them. I'd more or less agree with Sword, Head, Horn and Back for Marcus as a character but as always I have to question making Sword and Fist separate skills. It's one of those annoying things where a fighter character really feels like they should be able to do both competently but it's mechanically counter productive to have more than one combat skill. I'd much prefer just having the one 'fight' or 'melee' skill under one of the names that covers all bases. Competent also feels a bit low for the village champion's weapon skill, but then Aegium isn't that big a place.

For the roll Marcus suceeds with a complication, probably his idiot little brother pulling some nonsense.

The Horn roll to train militia [1d6] = 6 [1d6] = 1

For the diplomatic mission, I did think we were going earlier, Marcus was packing for it and everything, but the scenes kept moving on. cybersavant are you ready to go visit exciting new mud huts and meet intriguing new goatherds on the trip of a lifetime? :lol:

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Re: Dialectic

#132 Post by tibbius »

I thought more about what happens when things go wrong ... or right.
WeirdTools0.9.3.pdf
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Setbacks, or advancements. Setbacks may impair your tools. Advancements enhance your tools, or impair your opponent.

In Marcus' situation, he earns an advancement and a setback. Significant progress is made in educating the spear carriers. But Frona does something outrageous that detracts from Marcus' leadership for the rest of the day ...

... as far as the combat-oriented tools, I have thought about your point and vacillated a lot. Overall, I think I would like "real" fighters to be focused on martial skills to the extent that they miss on some other things. That's why I have multiple combat skills. Maybe it's misleading to say "Sword or Spear or Ax" because I want just one of those to cover all melee weapons. But I want unarmed combat to be a separate discipline, and ranged weapons to be a third distinct ability. Someone who is competent in all three starting out has done not much else than train those skills. They're like the guy at the dojo who can only talk about competitions and never hangs out on weekends because he lives and breathes martial arts - but boring as he is, you'd want him with you in a bad time.
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Re: Dialectic

#133 Post by tibbius »

tibbius wrote:Frona does something outrageous that detracts from Marcus' leadership for the rest of the day ...
I think admitting to his yearning for the lycanthrope life is outrageous enough.
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Re: Dialectic

#134 Post by Mr Stereo1 »

tibbius wrote:I thought more about what happens when things go wrong ... or right.
WeirdTools0.9.3.pdf
Setbacks, or advancements. Setbacks may impair your tools. Advancements enhance your tools, or impair your opponent.

In Marcus' situation, he earns an advancement and a setback. Significant progress is made in educating the spear carriers. But Frona does something outrageous that detracts from Marcus' leadership for the rest of the day ...
Right. I did put a longer post up, but honestly I'm feeling a bit weird right now with lockdown, a sprained foot and some body clock issues. Nothing major but if my post was a bit weird there that's why. I'm not really committed to some sub plot of Frona becoming a lycanthrope I just thought of that off the top of my head and started typing. Just having a bratty brother seems more IC and less edgelord honestly.
tibbius wrote: ... as far as the combat-oriented tools, I have thought about your point and vacillated a lot. Overall, I think I would like "real" fighters to be focused on martial skills to the extent that they miss on some other things. That's why I have multiple combat skills. Maybe it's misleading to say "Sword or Spear or Ax" because I want just one of those to cover all melee weapons. But I want unarmed combat to be a separate discipline, and ranged weapons to be a third distinct ability. Someone who is competent in all three starting out has done not much else than train those skills. They're like the guy at the dojo who can only talk about competitions and never hangs out on weekends because he lives and breathes martial arts - but boring as he is, you'd want him with you in a bad time.
Fair enough, though that does make me want to trade Back in for Fists. Sword is necessary for Marcus' role, Head and Horn make sense for his leadership position but Fists is more important than Back to living up to his martial responsibilities.

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Re: Dialectic

#135 Post by tibbius »

Mr Stereo1 wrote:Right. I did put a longer post up, but honestly I'm feeling a bit weird right now with lockdown, a sprained foot and some body clock issues. Nothing major but if my post was a bit weird there that's why. I'm not really committed to some sub plot of Frona becoming a lycanthrope I just thought of that off the top of my head and started typing. Just having a bratty brother seems more IC and less edgelord honestly.
cybersavant, Leitz, we need your input here. Do you prefer Marcus' little brother as a mischievous streaker who interrupts the weapons training, or as a troubled youth tempted to a life of crime?
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Re: Dialectic

#136 Post by Leitz »

tibbius wrote:
Mr Stereo1 wrote:Right. I did put a longer post up, but honestly I'm feeling a bit weird right now with lockdown, a sprained foot and some body clock issues. Nothing major but if my post was a bit weird there that's why. I'm not really committed to some sub plot of Frona becoming a lycanthrope I just thought of that off the top of my head and started typing. Just having a bratty brother seems more IC and less edgelord honestly.
cybersavant, Leitz, we need your input here. Do you prefer Marcus' little brother as a mischievous streaker who interrupts the weapons training, or as a troubled youth tempted to a life of crime?
This is ancient Greece, they didn't wear clothes half the time anyway. Just look at their pottery...

Really, the lycanthrope thing was very cool. Lots to play off of.

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Re: Dialectic

#137 Post by Mr Stereo1 »

Okay, if everyone's alright with it I'd like to see where it goes. Thanks for the edit, Tibbius.

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Re: Dialectic

#138 Post by tibbius »

Leitz and I have been doing a thing where he opens a google doc (I don't actually have a google account, so can't open one myself) and then invites me to edit it with him. The result is that we end up with a smooth-looking passage of the story that he then can post. We did it once for Bran's convo with Sosan about carrying fish or a spear, and we're doing it again for Bran's interactions with Xanthos and Sosan.

The co-written passage we're working on now incorporates Leitz's rolls for Bran to smooth talk Xanthos and impress Sosan, both of which were partial successes. It should be up in Chapter 4 fairly soon.

If anyone else would like to try this, just post a link to a doc here or PM me with it. Not proposing to go totally free form - each passage should be built on an intended action and a roll for the outcome.
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Re: Dialectic

#139 Post by Mr Stereo1 »

It's a good idea but I think I'd prefer to just have a pbp back and forth. Right now I think I'd be grasping for issues for Marcus to deal with though so I'm at a bit of a loose end for anything to post. I can just come up with something but I don't want to make a problem just so Marcus has a problem, you know?

If the quest for the Smelter and to win over Xanthos will take some time perhaps Marcus can search for Alexander? It's a bit weird we're writing him off so easily IC. Marcus kind of assumes he ran off to join the Lycanthropes since he trusts Stelios and no-one heard a struggle, but he might have run into wolves or something coming home at night.

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Re: Dialectic

#140 Post by tibbius »

Mr Stereo1 wrote:It's a good idea but I think I'd prefer to just have a pbp back and forth. Right now I think I'd be grasping for issues for Marcus to deal with though so I'm at a bit of a loose end for anything to post. I can just come up with something but I don't want to make a problem just so Marcus has a problem, you know?

If the quest for the Smelter and to win over Xanthos will take some time perhaps Marcus can search for Alexander? It's a bit weird we're writing him off so easily IC. Marcus kind of assumes he ran off to join the Lycanthropes since he trusts Stelios and no-one heard a struggle, but he might have run into wolves or something coming home at night.
I'm glad someone's thinking about doing something about Alexander's absence.
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