Pregame Discussions

[Scott308]

There is a pretty solid listing of the various gods in the back of the PHB. There are plenty of good options, depending on how you want to play your character. I would, however, strongly recommend not choosing to worship Tiamat, as we're trying to defeat the cult, not join them.

[Rex]

I saw the listing, just wasn't sure if it was forgotten realms, greyhawk or some other setting. I am familiar with greyhawk and forgotten realms deities (at least the 1e ones anyways). Sort of leaning towards a half-Orc Druid or Druid/Ranger follower of Mielikki if she is allowed. Still reading on multi-classing, but I think I have it figured out and just need a 13 in Dex and Wis, hopefully doable.

[BearSiren817]

Bahamut!! Please haha. My Tabaxi worships the Cat Lord...

[Scott308]

Rex, just remember that multi-classing works a bit differently than in early editions. At first level, you'll only have a level in one class, then as you level your character you can choose to take a level in a different class if you wish, so you could start as a druid then pick up a level of ranger. As your character hits level three, you could take another level of ranger, or take a level in a new class, or go back to druid. Unlike 1st edition, you can still level up your original class if you decide to pick up another class, and you can use features of all your classes without being penalized XP. The downside is you will not advance as far in your primary class, and ability score increases are based on levels in each class, not every 4 character levels.

[Rex]

Thanks Scott. I had it all figured correctly except the ability score increase. I may just go with a straight Druid or Ranger, still leaning towards half-Orc for some crazy reason. My thought process was to get to 3rd as a Ranger and then run Druid. That would get me the favored enemy (dragon) and archtype (hunter). That would allow me some special stuff against dragons. The FR Wiki says Mielikki Druids took on the abilities of Rangers, so I figured it would fit.

[dmw71]

I saw the listing, just wasn't sure if it was forgotten realms, greyhawk or some other setting. I am familiar with greyhawk and forgotten realms deities (at least the 1e ones anyways).

We're sticking in the Forgotten Realms, so any deity listed for that setting will be fine: Deities of the Forgotten Realms.

P.S. Mielikki is one of them.

Still reading on multi-classing, but I think I have it figured out and just need a 13 in Dex and Wis, hopefully doable.

What Scott said (here) is correct. Multi-classing in 5e is very different than earlier editions, and something I have literally zero experience with. So, I started to watch this -- Multi-Class Characters in 5e Dungeons & Dragons - Web DM -- to get a feel for it, and, honestly, after watching the first 3-minutes of it, I'm not sure I want to take on that challenge.

It's something I'm willing to look into more closely if you seriously want to pursue it, but I really don't care for doing it just for sake of trying to optimizing a build. Not saying that's what you're doing, but I could see, once multi-classing is on the table, that happening.

---

I see you responded before I finished submitting this. It sounds to me like playing a ranger, with the favored enemy and archetype you have planned, will make a pretty formidable character.

If you're definitely wanting to switch to druid starting at 4th level, just let me know so I have a chance to really take a closer look at the process.

[Rex]

Thanks Dave. I will most likely stick with a straight Ranger depending on rolls of course.

[Pulpatoon]

Multi-classing is one of those areas where I think 5e really got it right. By having a universal rate of advancement, all of the classes become swappable. It's as simple as picking which class you want to spend a level of advancement on. Much easier and more sensible than any of the schemes that proceeded it.

[dmw71]

Multi-classing is one of those areas where I think 5e really got it right. By having a universal rate of advancement, all of the classes become swappable.

Mechanically, yes, no doubt. I really like the experience point progression system.

But...

Even with my limited time playing, and passing familiarity with a handful of classes, I can see how it could be pretty easy to create some pretty overpowered combinations.

I'm willing to let you guys try it, but I'd like to discuss those plans ahead of time (if possible) to get a better feel for the planned combination.

[drpete]

On that note, how important is "optimization" of a character in 5e?

Zipping around on the internet, I see lots of posts talking about how to do this or that very well. Is that kind of optimization needed, or it it better to be kind of covering all bases "suboptimally" among the party, maybe with some redundancy?

[Scott308]

There is a lot of multi-classing and/ or optimizing of characters in Adventurers League just due to the nature of AL play. You don't know what classes will be at the table, so you may want to cover bases. I played a game at Gamehole last month with a number of traps. We didn't have a rogue, so no one to deal with traps or pick locks. The Paladin bashed locks and my wizard ended up dealing with the traps, just because he was 2 or 3 levels higher than the other characters so he had to to spare and wasn't going to be in melee. Often, you'll come across characters that took a one level dip into fighter to get Action Surge, or dipped into Rogue to get Sneak Attack, proficiency with Thieve's Tools, and Expertise, or Cleric for healing spells. I haven't multiclassed because I prefer to be able to be as powerful as I can in the class I selected.

I would say, come up with your character concept and don't worry about optimizing it or the party. We can tailor our style of play toward or away from different things based on what our skill sets are. And if there is a glaring hole we can't get around, 2nd level isn't very far away if someone wants to pick up a level in another class to fill it.

[Scott308]

Even with my limited time playing, and passing familiarity with a handful of classes, I can see how it could be pretty easy to create some pretty overpowered combinations.

I'm willing to let you guys try it, but I'd like to discuss those plans ahead of time (if possible) to get a better feel for the planned combination.

I don't think it will be as complicated or overpowered as you fear. Remember, every level a character picks up in a second class means they progress less in their primary class, preventing them from getting the really key class features until later, if at all. Plus if they don't take multiples of four levels in each class, they lose out on a Feat or ASI, which can be a huge loss. ASI points in CON help with HP or in DEX help with AC, things important no matter what classes you have. Not saying you have to put points into those- I cranked up the INT to 20 on my Wizard as fast as I could to give him more spell slots and more effective spells, CHA is huge for Sorcerers and Warlocks, etc. Multiclassing slows down, if not outright prevents, ASIs, which weakens characters. It's a trade-off.

[drpete]

Alright... so then how key are high stats?

Dunno if we're rolling or doing point buy, but in the case of point buying, does it make more sense to spread things around, get a bunch of 14s to start and be a jack of all trades (it looks like a human can have lots of 14s with the point buy mechanic, say), or to go for something more focused, at the cost of having more stats you are bad at? If I went "pretty good across the board" would I likely regret that immediately, regret it later, or maybe just be "well rounded"?

[Computer +1]

I am interested in playing a human warlock.

[dmw71]

On that note, how important is "optimization" of a character in 5e?

That depends.

My initial reaction to someone who openly considers optimizing their character is to cringe. I do not like it. At all. However, I've jumped back up to edit my original response after coming to realize that the favorite 5e character I've played (and one of my favorite D&D characters of any edition) was actually quite optimized.

But, not optimized for power. I'll explain later.

As a DM, if a player wants to optimize their character for power, I can't prevent players from doing it, and I won't try. But I will caution them. While it's fun to have an ideally built character that is all powerful, but only if they're still fun to play. Yes, being powerful can be fun, but it can also be boring.

I will detail this further below, but my recommendation is to visualize the character you'd like to play, and build that. If the result is an 'optimized' character, but it happens naturally, so be it. But, to study every possible build and plot a course of development simply based on the numbers, and what you think will be most effective... not my thing, and not something I would recommend.

Alright... so then how key are high stats?

They're helpful, but certainly not a requirement. The range of bonuses (or penalties) is +1 to +5 (or -5 to -1). That translates to a 5% to 25% increase on your roll.

So, helpful.

But, you can have a 10 ability score (0 modifier) and still hit with a good roll; just as you can have a 20 ability score (+5) and miss with a bad roll.

---

Okay, more thoughts about optimization:


Others may disagree (maybe rightly so), but I wouldn't worry too much about the mechanics in 5e when you're deciding on the character you want to play. Think of the type of character that you'll have fun playing for a long time. I would hate for you (or anyone) to get so caught up in trying to plot out the "perfect" character, but get extremely bored with them down the road because, while effective, they're may not the type of character you want to play.

I'm only four characters into my 5e career, but, based upon how I felt when playing them, I think I've figured out the "formula" that works best for me.

I start by thinking of a backstory for the character I'll be creating. What is something memorable that happened to them in their past? What did they do before settling upon their career, or class? The two -- background and class -- can be closely related, but do not have to be.

I will be providing each of you a snippet of information that you are encouraged to consider or apply to your character as well.

Having decided upon this backstory (which does not need to be super detailed), I look at the list of formal backgrounds that all characters will need to select. Is there one that fits this concept? If so, great! If not, is there one you can tie into this backstory you've created?

This formal background, which is new in 5e, gives you a lot of "stuff" for your character. Languages. Proficiencies. Tools. Skills. Equipment.

Then...

Then consider your race and class; the order doesn't really matter as much here, but I usually find that the work done in the previous steps helps define these choices.

Once you have your class, then, by all means, study the progression of that class for a bit. See what different archetypes or paths are available. What appeals to you? What do you think would be fun to play? Or interesting.

For example:

Again, as a player, I'm only on my fourth character.

1. Fighter
2. Fighter
3. Rogue
4. Wizard (current)

• The fighter, each taking a different archetype, were fun in their own way, but they were still kind of vanilla and I didn't really connect with them.
• My current character, a wizard, is now capable of casting 4th level spells (and one level away from being able to cast 5th level spells), is pretty fun to play because of all the varied spells at his disposal.

Now, Anders, my rouge, I had, without question, the most fun playing him. Not because he was a rogue (though, that certainly did help), but because of his backstory, and how that influenced his play... and how he was built.

Yes, he took full advantage of his sneaky stuff, but was also very helpful to the party in a non-traditional (yet, optimized) way.

He was a variant human, which allowed him to begin with a feat, so, because of his backstory, I gave him the Healer feat. I also gave him a higher wisdom score to boost his Medicine skill.

His roguish ways frequently got the group into trouble ("Fucking Anders" was a very commonly used phrase at the table), but he saved the group on many, many occasions with his healing capabilities.

He was so fun to play.

Then, a manticore killed the hippogriff he was mounted on, while flying at 700 feet, so... yeah, dead rogue.


My point being, my fighters were probably much more capable in battle, especially melee (though, my rogue, who was 5th level, was becoming quite capable); and my wizard can blast fireballs and lightning bolts pretty regularly which is fun, and effective.

But my rogue.

He was far and away the character I had the most fun playing, and I attribute that to the fact that he was built to an idea I thought up before I even really knew what he'd become.

So, yes, Anders was actually quite optimized... but in a very non-traditional sense (e.g. healing), and not in a planned way to become overpowered.



Again, just my two cents.

[Rex]

Sounds good. I generally start the same way no matter what the rule system I am using. I may not share everything with anyone else but it helps me to play the character. I have one thought out now, just waiting on a decision on how we are doing abilities. I still prefer random rolls.

[Computer +1]

Same here, I have my concept for a character set, just need clarification on how we roll stats.

[dmw71]

As much as I want to try rolling dice, I also know there was at least one player that didn't want to use that method, and I really don't want anyone getting stuck with bad rolls.

Let's just use the point buy system, detailed here: Variant: Customizing Ability Scores.



Once you're ready, please refer to the steps in the new 'Building a Character in D&D Beyond' topic.


If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[dmw71]

Okay, at this point, everyone has been supplied a bit of background detail.

If these details doesn't fit with whatever you had in mind for your character's background, definitely feel free to let me know and we can tweak them into something more appropriate.


By the way, I am tentatively targeting at least a soft launch on New Years Day. I see this campaign (even just the first book) potentially taking over a year to run, so, while it's silly, having 1/1 as the launch date seems kind of cool.


Definitely let me know if you have any questions, about anything.

We're getting closer!

[Pulpatoon]

Alright, aside from a superficial detail or two that may change as we settle in, I believe my character is complete and campaign-compliant!