OOC Discussion III: Bride of OOC

[Dram]

I agree 2 hour shift may be easier to work. Too bad we lost the bears they would of been good guards.

[Inferno]

Same spells. Thanks!

[Dram]

1st level Cleric
Cure Light Wounds
Command
Cure Light Wounds
Cure Light Wounds
Light
PROTECTION FROM EVIL
Remove Fear

Level 2
Cleric-Silence 15' Radius
Find Traps
Find Traps
Find Traps
Find Traps
Hold Person
Spiratual Hammer

Level 3
Dispel Magic
Glyph of Warding
Remove Curse

Level 4
Cure Serious
Cure Serious

[Inferno]

Hi,
I'm away and offline this week. Back on Monday, April 3.
Please play Agax as an NPC as needed, to keep things moving.
Have a good week, everyone.

[Inferno]

Hmm. I gotta go back and re-read the deck of many things wishes.

[Zhym]

Shinyah's wishes:

"Gene, I wish Strahd, and only Strahd, would be sent to the surface of the sun."

"I wish there were no more vampires in Barovia."

Agax's wish:

"O mighty Gene! I wish that this adventuring party should all be safely returned to this immediate area; alive and restored (body, soul and inventory) to the state we were in when we first approached this castle today, but still aware of all we experienced in this castle up until this very moment."

[Inferno]

Gragog "Well then I guess I have no real options other than rot here or kill myself or face Strahd and die with all the others, I wish I was in Zakhara about now."

I'm away for Easter. Back on Tuesday.
If needed, please play Agax as an NPC to keep things moving.
He has no more questions and will follow Gragog and Bragar back to our village prison.

Have a good weekend, everyone.

[GreyWolfVT]

Well that statement and my recent actions as Gragog are showing my true feelings for this game not offense to anyone at all but I have had my fill of Ravenloft, though I don't wish to be killed off or handed over to a new player I just want the game to be over already...

[Zhym]

Thanks a lot. :p

[Zhym]

I've been thinking about where to go with this game. I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry about that. I've been trying to avoid having waves of convenient reinforcements enter the game. It doesn't really fit the intended horror atmosphere of the game, especially the idea that Borovia is a forgotten isolated backwater of the world. OTOH, it's fair to decide that three PCs and a couple of henchmen have no chance against Strahd and his minions. And I haven't checked recently to find out if the new players I recruited last August (!) still want to play. When they joined on all those months ago, I thought I'd bring them into the game in the prison cells. Then you all skipped the prison cells.

The game has also gone astray of the module. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is making the game harder to manage. In the module, Strahd has a reason for bringing the PCs to Barovia, the Sun Sword is waiting for the right hilt to come along, Irena has her story going on, Madam Eva can do a reading giving the party certain clues, and so forth. Strahd may or may not have the same motivation now, the Sun Sword has been recreated and lost to Strahd, Irena is...gone or something, Madam Eva's reading may or may not still be valid (and the PCs she gave it to are no longer around), and some of the party's old friends seem to have gone over to the other side. There's a lot going on, and most of it isn't to the players' benefit.

Something most of the players didn't see is that I had some ex-players running their vamped PCs as villains. After a while, I realized that the villains were having much more fun than the PCs. That's a problem.

Also, when I started this game three and a half years ago (!!) I stuck pretty slavishly to the script. Now I have a good idea of what I like and don't like about the module. But my ability to change those things is hindered by all that's happened so far in the story.

So I'm thinking that if we keep going with the game, it should be a reboot. Wipe the board clean and start fresh with a new group of PCs. That has certain problems too—current players know things about the castle, Strahd, and plot points that wouldn't otherwise be known starting out (e.g., that the Sun Sword exists). There might be ways to work that into the story, though (e.g., the new PCs find an old tome written by the current PCs, that sort of thing).

The other option is we wrap this game up and put it away. This group still has some actions to take and decisions to make—whether to retire in town, make a last attempt at the castle, try to escape town despite the warnings of choking death should they try—but I don't want to force an extended endgame on everyone. I can write up a concluding post if you decide to end it here and give me an idea of what the group's course of action will be.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on what to do with the game. Please let me know what you think.

[Zhym]

If we do reboot, it might be interesting to make it a sandbox using Ravenloft as a campaign setting. This wouldn't be the AD&D 2e Ravenloft box setting, although I might adopt some rules. The idea would be to start PCs at level 1 in a Barovia that's more fleshed-out and has more going on. Sort of a Keep on the Borderlands or Village of Hommlet, but with undead. After leveling up naturally, and with Strahd acting as an overlord and adversary from afar, the PCs might level up enough to take on Strahd himself one day. I'd probably use some way to accelerate level advancement so you'd have a chance of getting to a high enough level to take on Strahd. Or everyone would start out a little higher than 1st level. I'm not quite sure how that would work yet.

But it's something I'm mulling over.

[GreyWolfVT]

I'm not so sure Zhym I think I've at this point had my fill of Ravenloft entirely, If anything I'd be more willing to start fresh in something entirely different. I'd love to have played Grognardsw War is Hell game from the start rather than jumping in part way through. Semi similar situation here when I joined I inherited a character then transferred to my own then died then started anew with my own character once more. At this stage to be up front it feels like the villains and monsters have a lot more on their side going in their favor than the PCs or good guys.

[Inferno]

First of all, Zhym, thanks for running this great game.

After seeing a piece of what you see in regards to the "broken" module narrative, I appreciate your efforts all the more.

If the choice is between shelving it or rebooting it, I say it's up to the DM. You have to be happy with what you run, of course. Either way, Agax is done.
If you want to wrap it up with a concluding post, it sure would be sweet if Agax went to sleep at our hideout and wasn't found in the morning.
Perhaps the dreamer had awakened?

Thanks again for a great ride!

[GreyWolfVT]

I agree the choice is really yours as the DM Zhym reboot or shelve entirely up to you. As for me I would enjoy playing a game you DM however if it is set in ravenloft sadly I will likely not participate. Either way if you conclude the game as scary as it sounds Gragog would prefer to maybe go out as trying to marry madam eva lol as odd as that sounds she appears to have a thing for him.

[greyarea]

I join in with Inferno in giving thanks. I know you put in a lot of effort and, having DMed quite a few games by PbP, I can appreciate how difficult it is. Having dead (undead?) PCs return as villains was genius.

Something most of the players didn't see is that I had some ex-players running their vamped PCs as villains. After a while, I realized that the villains were having much more fun than the PCs. That's a problem.

Having been one of the villains, I must say that it was certainly less frustrating than playing the PCs. The PCs have a specific job to do and face crazy odds which get worse over time as levels are drained and friendlies die off (which seems to happen a lot). The biggest thing we needed to do as villains was to toy with the PCs instead of killing them outright (which was frustrating in its own way -- I for one kept getting reminded by the DM that I was doing what he's prefer me not. "Don't call in a mess o' rats? But screwing with the PCs is so much fun."

Of course, as Zhym points out, therein lies the problem. This module is more fun as the bad guy and a module that isn't fun (or at least rewarding) for the adventurers can end up sucking for the players. This is especially true with the long play times that come with PbP and it takes an agile DM to be at the top of his game just to keep things going well. Again, kudos to Zhym.

I suspect that the system leads to this being way too much of an abattoir -- I suspect that playing as higher level PCs in D&D 5th, DCC, or whatnot where the PCs are more powerful might help. It also might help to use a smaller castle map as Ravenloft is simply massive which turns this into a bit of a slog, especially considering the slow play of PbP. I feel that some modules don't translate as well to this medium and Ravenloft might be an example.

Just my two cents.

[Zhym]

Thanks for the feedback. I do think there's something to the question of what the rewards are supposed to be. The authors of the module may have thought the story was enough on its own. And there is certainly treasure sprinkled about, but it's hard to make PCs care about treasure in a one-off module run.

I'll disagree about the castle being too big, mostly because the castle is the greatest thing about the module. There's a bunch of cool stuff in there, some of which the party never got to see (even in three years of gaming!). But you touch on something else: the Ravenloft module really isn't built for an extended 3-year campaign. Part of the fun is in encountering the module fresh. The party goes in as cocky, bored adventurers who have seen and defeated a lot, then gradually realize what they're in for. That sort of "mounting horror" thing is hard to sustain.

Looking back, this party was doomed when (just in case spoilers still matter):

Strahd killed Scarlett, took her shape, and followed the party around pretending to be her. He wasn't trying to kill Scarlett, it just happened (I'm not posting the details just in case I decide to run the module again. There are still secrets about Strahd I don't think anyone knows yet, except for Team Villains).

In one stroke, you lost your only cleric capable of turning undead and let the big bad into your ranks.

I let Stirling keep playing Scarlett as Strahd, which was also a fun thing most of the players didn't get to see. It's a darn shame that the party was so decimated by the time it was finally revealed that Scarlett wasn't herself.

A horror-themed game is tough to DM. Not only do you have to balance PC power vs. monster power, you have to create a sense of dread without making the players feel like the whole thing is futile. I've been impressed with how well Inferno has managed it in his Briargate game. If I reboot Ravenloft, I might just chuck the dark horror angle and play it as Abbot and Costello Meet Strahd. Or, less ridiculously, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Zhym]

FWIW (and for my own reference later on), here's what I think I'd change if I run Ravenloft again.

First, Strahd has enough of an advantage without letting him go outside during the day because of constant cloud cover. Plus, it complicates the Barovia economy—how do you grow anything in a land that never sees the sun? OTOH, I wouldn't want victory for the party to be as easy as breaking a window when Strahd's in the room. But there may be other ways around that.

I'd probably skip UA. Most of what's in there I just don't like. Or maybe I'd use OSRIC, which adopted the parts of UA that aren't totally stupid (like weapon specialization).

As I alluded to above, I think I need to put more work into Barovia to make it more of a real town instead of being essentially a ghost town populated only by gypsies and Important Plot Characters. Strahd's presence would still hang over the town, but the town wouldn't be under constant siege. It'd be more like the castle high above is something people talk about in hushed tones and blame for everything that goes wrong. No one ever goes there if they can avoid it, and the lord of the castle is more of an unseen figure of myth.

I'd also probably move the quest items out of the castle and have finding them be separate tasks. There are a couple of items that are crucial to beating Strahd. You found one of them, the Sunsword, then lost it when Helga near-TPK'd the party. The location of those items in the castle is determined randomly—Madam Eva's card reading early in the game determines where certain things will be in the castle. If they're in spots the players aren't likely to get to quickly, they may never find the items they need. Moving those out of the castle into separate goals would give the players a better shot of having them before heading to the castle. It would also give the PCs a chance to gain a level or two before taking on Strahd.

I'd probably ditch the Ireena plot, for the most part. It's the set up for a post-victory resolution that's too cheesy for words. And I'm bad at playing active NPCs anyway.

Any other thoughts on what might improve the module? Other than starting the PCs out at a higher level?

Another wacky idea: run it as a Paranoia module, where everyone is expected to die and has six lives.

Ravenloft can be a great module. At some point I'll probably try to scare up another group. As it were.

[Inferno]

Thanks for the kind words, Zhym.

[Inferno]

Looking back, this party was doomed when (just in case spoilers still matter):

Strahd killed Scarlett, took her shape, and followed the party around pretending to be her. He wasn't trying to kill Scarlett, it just happened (I'm not posting the details just in case I decide to run the module again. There are still secrets about Strahd I don't think anyone knows yet, except for Team Villains).

In one stroke, you lost your only cleric capable of turning undead and let the big bad into your ranks.

I let Stirling keep playing Scarlett as Strahd, which was also a fun thing most of the players didn't get to see. It's a darn shame that the party was so decimated by the time it was finally revealed that Scarlett wasn't herself.

I was wondering why Scarlett refused to use thief skills or cast cleric spells!
It never dawned on me that shapeshifting was in Strahd's bag of tricks. It's not canon vampire stuff. Good way to keep the PCs on their toes.

[GreyWolfVT]

Looking back, this party was doomed when (just in case spoilers still matter):

Strahd killed Scarlett, took her shape, and followed the party around pretending to be her. He wasn't trying to kill Scarlett, it just happened (I'm not posting the details just in case I decide to run the module again. There are still secrets about Strahd I don't think anyone knows yet, except for Team Villains).

In one stroke, you lost your only cleric capable of turning undead and let the big bad into your ranks.

I let Stirling keep playing Scarlett as Strahd, which was also a fun thing most of the players didn't get to see. It's a darn shame that the party was so decimated by the time it was finally revealed that Scarlett wasn't herself.

I was wondering why Scarlett refused to use thief skills or cast cleric spells!
It never dawned on me that shapeshifting was in Strahd's bag of tricks. It's not canon vampire stuff. Good way to keep the PCs on their toes.

That I never thought of either until now... but we in the first group i was with on here had a big problem when a banshee OK'd the paladin as well. Then Helga's almost TPK was another big killer. I could see this being better off more in a layout like Transylvania with the castle as Zhym mentioned it its there we all see it and blame it for our problems but rarely see the master. Hell maybe even throw in another oddity like a Dr. Frankenstein make it sorta vanhelsingish.