Character Sheets

[Keehnelf]

I think it's a question of culture and the mechanics. Torchbearer (and BW) is very explicitly designed so that you create mechanically-relevant "hooks" to hang your role-playing on, and the type of rewards and what earns them are very clearly laid out.

The idea is that "xp/other reward for roleplaying" is so ill-defined that it could encompass all different kinds of activities, some of which may work better for some groups than others. The BWHQ framework for rewards focuses on very specific kinds of activities, the content of which is totally up to the players at the table.

That is, in Torchbearer you get "XP" for:

Low level rewards: (Fate Points)
-Using your Belief to move the game "forward" (i.e. in a new or interesting direction)
-Working toward (but not accomplishing) your stated Goal.
-Gaining an in-game benefit from an Instinct.

High level rewards: (Persona Points)
-Playing out a conflict between your Belief and the actions you take and showing how it changes your character.
-Accomplishing your stated Goal.
-Being voted MVP for being essential to the party's success in the session.
-Teamwork and hard work on behalf of the group. (one player per session)
-Embodiment: lively and entertaining role-playing of your character.

Notice that only one of these things is as soft and fuzzy as the usual D&D "XP for role-playing" reward system. The rest are tied to very specific actions in relation to mechanical items on your character sheet. It's important to remember that Belief, Goal and Instinct are just as mechanically-relevant in Torchbearer as Health, Will, or any Skill value is.

[GreyWolfVT]

I get yah. One of these days I will have to sit down and locate some time (not at work) to read the pdf. I have not even done that yet. Mostly because I do this at work in "down time" and leave the site open in a different tab. So some might think I live on this site but I actually am shown online but not always at the helm per say. I do hope I am not holding anything back I do appreciate the pro-loge as it is showing others what I am failing to put words to for a instinct or belief.

[Q.Q Elf]

I get yah. One of these days I will have to sit down and locate some time (not at work) to read the pdf. I have not even done that yet. Mostly because I do this at work in "down time" and leave the site open in a different tab. So some might think I live on this site but I actually am shown online but not always at the helm per say. I do hope I am not holding anything back I do appreciate the pro-loge as it is showing others what I am failing to put words to for a instinct or belief.

No worries about that. It's important to get this stuff right.

In some ways, Torchbearer is like "Roleplaying for Dummies" because in D&D, you're expected to know how to do this already. D&D assumes a kind of roleplaying understanding, where you just go play. Torchbearer is about the process of playing a role, which is good for people who have never done roleplaying in a serious way.

In other ways, Torchbearer (and Burning Wheel) is graduate-level work in roleplaying. It will be some of the hardest roleplaying you'll ever do because you have to know how to write what your character actually cares about. If I can't tell you how I think as a real person, how can I say what my roleplaying person thinks? Not just knowing it internally, but putting words to it... that's a real trick.

As long as we're having fun, I don't care one way or another. I need to clarify some of the other players' Beliefs & Instincts as well, but as long as we're approaching the point where we can throw some dice, that's all good. It's a process, and a very important one.

[Q.Q Elf]

Okay, time to comment on the other Beliefs & stop picking on GreyWolfVT.

"If elves turn their faces from the world, no one will be able to stop the forces of darkness from destroying all that is beautiful."

I can work with this. This says to me something about the old alliance between Elves and Men. This also makes me think that we'll introduce a lot of friction on that account, especially in civilized places. Racism against Elves? Easy to do.

I may add another Law to the Keep on the Borderlands about Elves. Elves will need to come out more in the environment, in any case.

"The enemies of my faith must always be fought, no matter the odds."

Fine. Number one, we'll need enemies of the Faith.

Number two, some of the enemies will need to be fought and defeated, and some of the enemies might have to be friends (other than the faith-based issue). I will keep that in mind.

"The Gaze of the Nine Eye'd Lord will fall upon all things, that they may be known and writ upon the Omnipaedia. I am an Eye in the Dark."

This I had to think about a lot more. It's an exploration thing, yes? I think it's a good idea for a game like Torchbearer. It's not explicitly religious... although what you find may have to conflict with the religion in order to get the most mileage out of this Belief. That's a challenging thing for me to do since the religion is more of your business, but I can ponder it.

The other thing is pushing Ahmad into places where he may not want to go... making obstacles for him to going forward. Food, shelter, torchlight, threat of violence are all obvious obstacles. I'll have to come up with more than that, I think, but I can work with it.

[Q.Q Elf]

sulldawga, why does Marodin have only 7 stat points (Will 4, Health 3)? Also, did you choose a Specialty skill?

I'm not saying something's wrong... I'm saying I'm confused by what I see on your character sheet.

[Q.Q Elf]

GreyWolfVT, the default Dwarf comes with Lying-wise. A Wise, in Torchbearer, augments your existing skills. So with Lying-wise, you can be better at Lying through your Wise in Lying... and better at detecting Lies.

However, you do have the choice to select a Wise instead of Lying-wise at character creation. If you look at the other characters, you can get some ideas about Wises.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =303019194

What kinds of Wises? Here are some ideas...

• Specific Monster Wises: Goblin-wise, Dragon-wise, Sparkly Vampire-wise
• Specific Location Wises: Rottenwood Forest-wise, Anduin River-wise, Caves of Chaos-wise
• Specific Town Wise: Minas Tirith-wise, Keep on the Borderlands-wise
• Specific Group Wises: Dunedain-wise, Bandit-wise, Dwarf-wise
• Specific Thing Wise: Ugly Truth-wise, Lying-wise, Mushroom-wise, Beer-wise

[GreyWolfVT]

I'd rather the regular wise not the lying wise.

[Q.Q Elf]

I'd rather the regular wise not the lying wise.

Ok, no problem.

Come up with something your Dwarf is wise at.

[GreyWolfVT]

ale.

[sulldawga]

sulldawga, why does Marodin have only 7 stat points (Will 4, Health 3)? Also, did you choose a Specialty skill?

I'm not saying something's wrong... I'm saying I'm confused by what I see on your character sheet.

Paladins can't have Health be higher than Will. So I made them Will 5 and Health 3.

Then when I got to the Human Nature questions, I answered that Marodin would want his voice to be heard the same as Elves and Dwarves so I increased his Nature by 1. I didn't have Lore Master or Scholar so I had to reduce Will by one.

Specialty is Healer.

[Q.Q Elf]

Okay, back to GrewWolfVT.

Let's see if this works, based on what you've posted so far.

Belief: Violence never solves anything.
(Based on Horris declaring that Vengeance never solved anything.)

Instinct: Always stop and consider the alternatives.
(Based on Horris' reaction to going after whomever killed the people on the road.)

...

The Belief... it's probably the easiest one for me to work with, as a Game Master. I could also work in the "tolerance for other ideals" concept as the Belief, but it can be a challenge to do in Torchbearer because Burning Wheel generally isn't a good way to do GMPC.

I think the Instinct is pretty classic for Burning Wheel games because it demands introspection, and not every situation works well with introspection.

We'll also have to come up with a Goal for Horris (i.e. something he can accomplish within a real-world game session). I think I need to go over the party's Goals as a whole, though.

[Q.Q Elf]

GOALS...

For GreyWolfVT, a Goal is something you want to accomplish within a game session. In terms of PbP, a session will be like clearing one of the Caves, and the Caves of Chaos has many caves to clear. I don't want to write it for you... so if I can figure out something from what you wrote, then I will try to do that.

...

"Discover the true fate of the traveling merchants attacked near the caves of chaos."

Fine. This is solvable within a "session" or two, I think. I can flip Caves around to make it work.

"I will wipe the Caves of Chaos clean of impurity."

The thing I'll say about this is that the Caves of Chaos was meant to be more of a mega-dungeon, with multiple Caves to be cleaned out. I don't know that it's solvable in a session, but that's also on me for not framing the situation better.

If I make some Goblin signs near the dead bodies on the road, combined with Marodin's Goblin-wise, maybe that will help you set up a Goal that is more single-session-y.

"The Darkness within the Caves of Chaos must be brough to light; I will find the entrance and throw open its doors, that the Nine Eye'd Lord may cast his Gaze within."

I like that it's character-y, but it's almost at the "Light a torch" level in terms of Goals because you will get to the entrance of the Caves since the adventure is inside the Caves.

What if you're on a mission to do something, to uncover something?

If it helps, here's what I threw out on the Recruiting thread (not in this forum folder). If you need to add more to the setting, then let's discuss it so you can get a character-y Goal that's bigger than what you have so far.

Why are we here?

The Keep on the Borderlands has stood for many years, watching over a river valley in the northeast* of the Grand Duchy. It has always been the last waystation along the old North Road between the Grand Duchy's borderlands and the fiefdoms further to the East.

Twenty years ago, hordes of humanoid invaders moved into a cave complex just outside the reach of the Keep's patrols, along the fetid banks of the Goblinwater - a murky stream fed by runoff from the swamps that mark this end of the river valley. When the goblins and their ilk moved in, the people of the Keep named the place the Caves of Chaos.

An intrepid band of wandering adventurers rid the Caves of the humanoid threat, and put all the inhabitants to death. The adventurers were hailed as heroes, and they went on their merry way, comforted by the thought that the Keep had been made safe... or so they thought.

Now, twenty years since that time, travelers tell stories of burned out wagons and slaughtered merchants on the trade road, near the Caves of Chaos. And at night, an inhuman howl of rage and grief echoes out from deep in the swamps to the south of the old North road.

* EDIT: I originally put northwest (a la the translocation to Greyhawk in the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands). I intend to put it in the northeast of our Grand Duchy in this game world.

[GreyWolfVT]

I would say one of my goals is to survive clearing one of the caves.

[Q.Q Elf]

I would say one of my goals is to survive clearing one of the caves.

Too passive, and nothing is on the line because the end state is unchanged from the starting state.

You need a kind of Goal that says, "I'm going to go out and kick some ass", more or less.

Goals that are, "I will eat supper today," or "I will avoid smelly cheese" don't work in this space.

[Keehnelf]

You could adapt sulldawga's goal rom my TB game which is basically "I'll make sure my companions make it back from the expedition alive." That pits something on the line for your character if you're running out of food and light and your companions are stuck somewhere...

[GreyWolfVT]

Fine...... goal to clear 2 of the caves of Chaos??

[Keehnelf]

Why would he have that goal? He seems reluctant even to go...remember that based on other pc's beliefs we'll be cleaning house in the caves already, so what does your character specifically want out of the situation given we're already committed?

[Q.Q Elf]

Fine...... goal to clear 2 of the caves of Chaos??

In terms of game mechanics, fine.

In terms of mood, what does it mean to you? The central belief of the Mouse Guard is, "It matters not what you fight... but what you fight for." It doesn't matter if you are facing a dragon, or bad weather, or your own self-doubts. What's important is what you are fighting for.

Of course, unlike the valiant Mouse Guard, you could be fighting for pockets full of gold and a bed full of wenches.

I'll list some samples in a bit, but I need coffee first.

[GreyWolfVT]

Fighting for the good of the land and to help the holier than thou party members maybe a bit of dwarven pride and as well as to do something to help remove the chaos tumor on this section of the land.

[Q.Q Elf]

Fighting for the good of the land and to help the holier than thou party members

A bit too high level. Dial it down to a game session, or a day or two in the game world.

Here are samples (a combination of stuff from the book, and things I thought of, based on other adventures).

• "I will determine what happened to the Innkeeper and his guests."
• "I won't let this city fall to the Dragon." (assuming the Dragon's attack is imminent, and not a far-off thing)
• "I will drive out the evil that has overtaken the ruined temple."
• "I will discover the source of the strange lights in the old mansion."

Of course, our problem, for Keep on the Borderlands, is that the dungeon is not a one-piece event that we can solve in a single session. It's the Caves of Chaos, not the Cave of Chaos... so the standard Torchbearer, "I will clear the dungeon" Goal does not work very well.

The Hound saying, "I'm going to eat every chicken in this f*cking room" is not a great Goal (too short a time period), but it's closer to what we're looking for here.

This might work better for the Hound (just prior to the Red Wedding): "I will take the girl to her c*nt mother and her c*nt brother, and claim my reward."