Disclosure & The Stairs

[Raven Crowking]

In the 5th Expedition, you have just discovered some stairs. These stairs, and the corridor leading to them are not part of the Barrowmaze product. The stairs and tunnel leading to it represent an interplanar terminus that will disappear after this appearance, appearing again at its normal anchor point.

Normally, I would not explain things like this aforehand, but I would like to give you the opportunity to make an informed decision.

I strongly believe that a large part of the joy of rpgs comes from discovery, and that this joy is damaged if you know what is going to happen ahead of time. At the same time, I can hardly tell you that you cannot buy Barrowmaze I & II.....in fact, both are excellent products and I would recommend them if you are looking for something for your home game.

People can role-play being surprised, and people can role-play not knowing what's going on, but that deprives you of the joy of figuring it out for yourself. Moreover, it puts players in a position of having to either intentionally make bad decisions for their characters, or to use knowledge gained from reading the material. I am not a fan of either option, to state things mildly. Perhaps this makes me an old-fashioned GM. So be it. I am.

If you have purchased, or are liable to soon purchase, these products, I strongly urge you to go down the stairs. There you will find a larger megadungeon of my own devising, and be part of the playtest group for eventually turning it into a DCC product. New chills, new thrills, new surprises.

If you haven't purchased Barrowmaze, and don't expect to do so any time soon, feel free to split your characters, or to devise new characters so as to participate in both threads.

At this point, I am going to split the game. Those choosing to go down the stairs will not be returning to Helix. They will get to keep playing, though. Just in a different field.

Thanks,

Daniel

[caveman]

Milner has never bought a barrowmaze, but hes heading down to the dungeon of crows... There may be a warrant out for him from Lord Helix anyways...

[Raven Crowking]

I warn you, the place is filled with my warped sense of humour, and my type of encounters. There are also well over 1,000 encounter areas on Level I alone.

[beermotor]

But I like playing Barrowmaze. (Even if I bought it and have started running it.)

I'm not averse to ending up somewhere else... Daryll least of all would be worried about that! But I'd rather not get stuck in a dungeon with 1000+ encounters and no way out, ifyaknowwhatImean. HP in particular wants to get out and spend some time in study. And I want to pare down my group of characters again... Probably just play HP for a while, to enjoy the wizardly stuff.

[Raven Crowking]

The way down will be the way out....just out to elsewhere.

[beermotor]

Okay... maybe in-character, we can see some daylight? Or smell a sweet breeze or something? Otherwise, I think we'd assume down = more crypt...

[beermotor]

Also, I guess I should offer to quit or something, I mean if you're doing this solely because I bought Barrowmaze, I don't want to ruin everybody else's fun. However, it does seem that it's mostly me and caveman now, heh.

[Raven Crowking]

@Beermotor: I am sorry if this is a conflict for you. I have wrestled with the issue, and this is the solution I came up with. I would not run a module for someone who was reading/running it in person; I do not feel like doing so on the InterWebs. I know that I cannot police individuals in either case, nor should I have to. I appreciate your honesty, and I am enjoying running material for you. This is my compromise.

To be clear: If you go down the stairs, turn around, and go back up the stairs you will exit the dungeon somewhere else. The stairs down do not lead to the outside.

@Caveman: You have just given this dungeon its official name. Let it forever more be known as the Dungeon of Crows.

OTHER INFO: When I was working on RCFG (before discovering the glory that is DCC), I needed a large-scale area that was designed to make use of what I considered the strengths of that system. If you are familiar with my work at all, you will know that this means unusual monsters, pulp weirdness, and interesting treasures. While DCC is a better rules system than RCFG, I think (it is lighter and accomplishes almost all of the same heavy lifting, plus some cool heavy lifting RCFG did not accomplish), I was trying to create a system that had a stronger pulp feel.

Ultimately, though, you have to go with your gut here. Decide what your characters are going to do, and I will deal with the rest.

[beermotor]

Well, I think you're a fine judge/DM, but you're making a weird decision, IMHO. I mean, consider the desire of many to play old AD&D modules. Would you refuse to run one because someone has it in their collection? Would you refuse to play in a game because you'd DMed the module in the past? I mean, I don't worry about people buying L1 for my PbP game, for instance... I've not messed with the map much/at all, but all the monsters are very much changed, while there might still be a kernel of the original. And there's still the randomness of the dice rolls... especially w/r/t Barrowmaze.

That said, I suppose my characters would follow Milner into the darkness at least a little ways further, just to explore a bit... not knowing that would transport them far way. But if you asked me as a player, I'd like to continue with Barrowmaze. I'll stick with the group though.

[Raven Crowking]

Well, I think you're a fine judge/DM, but you're making a weird decision, IMHO. I mean, consider the desire of many to play old AD&D modules. Would you refuse to run one because someone has it in their collection?

If they had read/used it? I would not run it for them, no. Or, as you suggest, I would make significant changes to the material. Effectively, though, it would then become something else. Why the hell would I run something for someone who knows all about it? Where is the joy in that, for either party?

Is this a weird decision? Every module that was ever printed used to contain a warning to potential players not to read the module if they were going to use the adventure. They only stopped doing this because, at some point, it became common knowledge.

To me, it would seem to be a very weird decision to run any adventure for people who had read the adventure. Where does the excitement come from? The tension? Likewise, I would never want to read the text/examine the maps of an adventure I was playing through.

Really, has peeking behind the screen ever been okay behaviour? Has it ever been weird to not let the players read the adventure before running it? Is that really what you are trying to tell me?

I think that I made my reasoning relatively clear:

I strongly believe that a large part of the joy of rpgs comes from discovery, and that this joy is damaged if you know what is going to happen ahead of time....People can role-play being surprised, and people can role-play not knowing what's going on, but that deprives you of the joy of figuring it out for yourself. Moreover, it puts players in a position of having to either intentionally make bad decisions for their characters, or to use knowledge gained from reading the material. I am not a fan of either option, to state things mildly.

Maybe "spoilers" are the current thing. Maybe we've become overly used to knowing what's going to happen before we take our seats. Maybe that makes us more comfortable about what happens next. To my mind, that sells these games short. It's like the difference between The Blues Brothers (excellent movie, lots of things implied remain unexplained) and Blues Brothers II (utter crap, felt the need to explain the magic away from the original). Or the god-awful midi-chlorians of Phantom Menace. Not knowing, sometimes, is part of the fun. I could go into specific examples in Barrowmaze, but doing so would spoil the fun for everyone else. And I have no desire to do that.

If you want to pretend to be surprised, you don't need me for that.

If you are going to take the adventure from a GM's-eye view, why do you need someone else to GM it for you?

I don't want to make anyone do anything that they don't want to do. Even less, I want to compromise the integrity of the games I run. Even less than that, I want to argue about whether or not I should feel that way.

But if you asked me as a player, I'd like to continue with Barrowmaze.

Why?

Is it because you like the setting, or because you like the way it is being run?

If it is because you like the setting, then you are extremely lucky because, now that you are running it, you have more of the setting at your fingertips than you did before.

If it is because you like the way that it is being run, then you are also extremely lucky, because that won't change.

If it is a combination of the two, then you are somewhat less lucky, because if you choose to stay with the Barrowmaze, it will no longer be what is in the books you purchased.

[Raven Crowking]

(And I am sorry to everyone else reading this, but the idea that "don't read the module you're playing in" is an unusual viewpoint made me blow a gasket. Old man is olding.)

[beermotor]

I hear you. I guess I just don't want to feel, or be made to feel, like I peeked behind the DM screen and ruined the game for everybody at the table. That wasn't my intent and I don't think I've done it, by any stretch. (Maybe I've compromised the integrity vis-a-vis YOU, I'll allow, but, grudgingly...I don't think I've been spilling the beans or anything to the rest of the party and frankly I haven't done it for myself either, outside of briefly checking my map work against the free preview on RPGNow.com.) I enjoy it for all of the reasons that you stated, though you said that's the worst of the lot. Heh.

Whatever, I'm not trying to ruin your game. If people want me to go away so they can keep on with Barrowmaze then I'll just retire I guess, and y'all can make yo own damn maps!

If you want to move us out of Barrowmaze into something else then I'll stick around. I'll abide by what the group wants to do.



I just read your update and dude, if this is making you blow a gasket, I'll just quit. It's not worth it. I still think you're crazy, but maybe it's the water up there or something.

[Raven Crowking]

I hear you. I guess I just don't want to feel, or be made to feel, like I peeked behind the DM screen and ruined the game for everybody at the table. That wasn't my intent and I don't think I've done it, by any stretch.

Friend, if I thought that was your intent, I wouldn't have offered a compromise.

But how you can imagine that buying and reading the adventure is not peeking behind the screen "by any stretch" is beyond me. How you can imagine that it is "weird" to see a problem with buying and reading the adventure you are currently playing in, again, is beyond me.

Your resignation is accepted. No hard feelings, though, and you are welcome to the Dungeon of Crows in the future if you so choose. I'll wait 24 hours to see if anything has changed, and then move on both threads of the game.

[Dogma]

I know my posting has been erratic as of late, but that's not through lack of interest, just busy with work, family, etc.

I would like to continue on with Dungeon of Crows if it's not too late.

[Raven Crowking]

Too late?!? Perish the thought!

You, too, may enter the Dungeon of the Crows.

[caveman]

Hey, Beermotor, I'd like you to keep playing!

In all honesty, I'm digging playing with you guys, but I'm finding the Barrowmaze a lil dry. I wouldn't mind a little more pulp weirdness or something. And a DM running his own creation is always the best anyways. So nothing's ruined for me, I think its a keen opportunity. I bought the Bonehoard the other day and thought it was pretty cool.

I do hear the request for a bit of in-n-out to the dungeon, so we can vary the setting a bit between town and dungeon etc. Episodic play within a campaign is always something I like.

So THAT's why Milner is going down the stairs, because he has a lil bracelet of dice on his wrist and they are spinning round... (Quag Keep reference for the App N geeks amongst us)

[caveman]

Just as a mediatory side note, this might have been a bit smoother if it were introduced by private message. The internets can feel so harsh sometimes...

anyways, let's game on!

[Raven Crowking]

Just as a mediatory side note, this might have been a bit smoother if it were introduced by private message. The internets can feel so harsh sometimes...

I tried to avoid calling anyone out, and I tried to be "nice" in enforcing the "You can't both play and read the adventure" rule (which, to my mind, is pretty basic). At the same time, though, if I substantially changed the Barrowmaze, while adverting play in the Barrowmaze.....I just don't think that would have been cool.

anyways, let's game on!

Agreed.

[caveman]

Im stoked to play yr dungeon!

[Dumnbunny]

I'll abide by what the group wants to do.

I'm interested in the product of the twisted mind of Raven Crowking. I'll send Jed down there, and Murq as well unless someone stays behind in Barrowmaze; Murq'll keep them company. Though I wouldn't be opposed to a trip back to town at some point; Jed's had a couple failures and the chance of disapproval is growing.

On a personal note, beermotor I hope you stay with the game. I've enjoyed and valued your contributions.