Campaign Setting Discussion

[ffilz]

The monk turns his attention to the two samurai and the villagers. He raises one eyebrow at the mention of ghosts and lips his cup to finally sip his tea.

Bankei slurps the tea, a mark of poor breeding in the eyes of the present samurai. "Alas, a spirit in a woeful state. Perhaps peta, a hungry ghost? Or asurakya, a frightened ghost? This matters," he asks the peasants.


Saving link for later.

Could you point me to something that describes the Buddhist outlook on sprits etc so I can make sure I’m offering something workable?

[Marullus]

Feel free to make it up. i am doing light Google research on a baseline of 20 year old comparative religion classes. Here'swhat i referenced:

This thread (search term "Buddhism ghosts") addresses it. Modifying a fantasy setting just assumes superstition is real. I am using these snippets:

Now let us direct our gaze downwards. Let us look at the "four woeful states" (apaya). The woeful states are the nether worlds. Normally four of them are recognized: hell (naraka), the realm of the beasts (tiracchana), the realm of the hungry ghosts (peta), and the realm of the frightened ghosts (asura or asurakya). These four as a group are called the "four woeful states''. They are vividly depicted in temple murals. Hell, the beasts, the hungry ghosts, and the asuras are all depicted according to traditional beliefs, which means all four are thought to apply only after death. In other words, the four woeful states as understood in everyday language are interpreted materialistically. The denizens of hell, the beasts, and so on are thought of as actual lowly, "flesh and blood" creatures.

The term "hungry ghost" (peta) in everyday language refers to a creature supposed to have a tiny mouth and an enormous belly. It can never manage to eat enough and so is chronically hungry. This is another possible form in which we may be reborn after death. These are the hungry ghosts of everyday language.

Now to the asura or frightened ghosts. In everyday language, an asura is a kind of invisible being. It goes around haunting and spooking, but is too afraid to show itself.

...i saved the link to the original source book in my original post.

[ffilz]

Feel free to make it up. i am doing light Google research on a baseline of 20 year old comparative religion classes. Here'swhat i referenced:

This thread (search term "Buddhism ghosts") addresses it. Modifying a fantasy setting just assumes superstition is real. I am using these snippets:

Now let us direct our gaze downwards. Let us look at the "four woeful states" (apaya). The woeful states are the nether worlds. Normally four of them are recognized: hell (naraka), the realm of the beasts (tiracchana), the realm of the hungry ghosts (peta), and the realm of the frightened ghosts (asura or asurakya). These four as a group are called the "four woeful states''. They are vividly depicted in temple murals. Hell, the beasts, the hungry ghosts, and the asuras are all depicted according to traditional beliefs, which means all four are thought to apply only after death. In other words, the four woeful states as understood in everyday language are interpreted materialistically. The denizens of hell, the beasts, and so on are thought of as actual lowly, "flesh and blood" creatures.

The term "hungry ghost" (peta) in everyday language refers to a creature supposed to have a tiny mouth and an enormous belly. It can never manage to eat enough and so is chronically hungry. This is another possible form in which we may be reborn after death. These are the hungry ghosts of everyday language.

Now to the asura or frightened ghosts. In everyday language, an asura is a kind of invisible being. It goes around haunting and spooking, but is too afraid to show itself.

...i saved the link to the original source book in my original post.

Heh, I missed your link initially because it was in micro-type...

I don't understand all of that discussion, but I will ruminate and have an answer maybe tomorrow.

Any thoughts on how the Buddhist spells might affect these different kinds of spirits?

[Starbeard]

The few stories and hagiographies I've read involve using funeral rites to send the dead onto their next life, so in a fantasy context, D&D-style turning undead, banishment and command word style cleric magic would all fit thematically. You would just refluff it by saying that you have a heart-to-heart talk with the spirit, it recants its ways and desires a higher order of life, then you give it a funeral and the spirit passes on.

[ffilz]

Still not grokking how the different kinds of spirits all fit together, let's go with frightened ghost. Of course all of this is just some townsfolk repeating what they've heard, so the reality might be something entirely different...

[ffilz]

I’ve been reading samurai RPG bestiaries but haven’t found anything on frightened ghosts. Does any one have any pointers? I can also just make something up. Gali would have been easier but don’t make sense to my thought of what’s going on.

[Marullus]

In western culture, I assume a "ghost" is a "frightened ghost" which has unfinished business and a "hungry ghost" is more of a "poltergeist" with more capacityfor violence in the physical world. As before... just pick a ghost template and do what you want with it. We will roll eith your story.

[ffilz]

In western culture, I assume a "ghost" is a "frightened ghost" which has unfinished business and a "hungry ghost" is more of a "poltergeist" with more capacityfor violence in the physical world. As before... just pick a ghost template and do what you want with it. We will roll eith your story.

OK, that works for me, that's sort of what I was thinking.

And to get things moving, does anyone have anything else before leaving the tea house? Does anyone have anything they want to purchase in the town before heading up to the temple?

[jemmus]

From what lore I know about ghosts, they're stuck in the overriding mental state they were in when they died. If they were very hungry, they might be hungry ghosts. There are some like that in Japan. I've forgotten what they're called, but usually they're harmless children ghosts. Say, there's a group of six kids, and a mom has given them six pieces of candy. But when they pass them around, one is missing and no one knows why. It's because a kid hungry ghost got it. It's considered kind of lucky to have that kind of ghost around. They're kind of an unseen friend. Very different than the gaki hungry ghosts in Bushido.

I suppose a frightened ghost would be one who died while terrified of some danger. Gameplay-wise, maybe they're constantly fearful, and will lash out at everything in self-defense? Except if the danger is the specific one that killed them, they'll flee terrified? Seconded on whatever GM decides to do is good.

[ffilz]

So I have a question for those who have read/watched more of the samurai/ninja media... I assume a fear effect is reasonable for ghosts (and probably other monsters, mostly in the spirit or partially spirit types), but what does that look like in the media? How is it resisted? I'm trying to come up with a good system that will be interesting. Cold Iron has traditionally only had fear as a spell, but that doesn't seem quite right for a ghost. Spell is fine for a sorcerer and eventually you'll encounter those, but in the meantime, we have a low level ghost... I want a chance of people freezing or fleeing in fear, but I don't want to automatically turn the bushi into puddles of goo and dishonor them...

I also need to think of an exorcism mechanic. Bushido's is interesting, but perhaps a bit too easy... At least for the lower power level of starting Cold Iron characters...

[jemmus]

In old Japanese movies, the protagonists usually don't realize they've encountered a ghost. The ghost mesmerizes them and they think they're making love to a live woman, etc., until someone tells them she's been dead for a month, etc. Then they see the dead body/skeleton and realize the truth. In both Kwaidan and Ugetsu, characters are protected from ghosts by Buddhist sutras painted on their bodies. Sorry, probably not a very helpful answer to your question.

Agreed that exorcism may be too easy in Bushido. At least in the two encounters so far.

[ffilz]

In old Japanese movies, the protagonists usually don't realize they've encountered a ghost. The ghost mesmerizes them and they think they're making love to a live woman, etc., until someone tells them she's been dead for a month, etc. Then they see the dead body/skeleton and realize the truth. In both Kwaidan and Ugetsu, characters are protected from ghosts by Buddhist sutras painted on their bodies. Sorry, probably not a very helpful answer to your question.

Agreed that exorcism may be too easy in Bushido. At least in the two encounters so far.

Yea, I'm getting a feeling ghosts in the media probably don't mesh well with gaming ideas...

It may take me a few days, but I'm going to contemplate a good mechanic. I may add some spells to help also (in which case I'll have to shuffle Bankei's memorization since he knew you were going after a ghost).

Of course the best bet is for Bankei to be able to engage the ghost in conversation to learn about the event leading to the ghost's formation.