Rules Discussion

[jemmus]

What do you guys think about this rules proposal?
-Bushido has 5 schools of spells based on the elements, of course. Fire, Metal, Wood, Water, Soil. (I'm not sure why the designers added Soil to the classic Chinese four elements. Maybe because the Japanese names of the day of the week are Sun Day, Moon Day, Fire Day, Water Day, Tree Day, Metal Day, and Soil/Earth Day).

-If the spellcaster is in a place dominated by a certain element, Power costs are reduced. For example, the PCs are now on Fuji, which is Soil (and air, which is not a school, but Soil seems to be the closest match). Spells from the Soil school would be cast at, say, 25% less Power cost.

-Conversely, if the spell in in an opposed school, Power cost would increase by, say, 25%. Chinese kung fu has tactical doctrine about which elements are opposed to each other. "If the opponent comes at you with ______, use Wood (splitting power) to divide the force." An obvious example would be Fire opposed to Water. If the spellcaster is on a ship in the sea or standing in water, a Water school spell would be at an advantage, while a Fire school spell would be at a disadvantage. The caster can draw from the element around him in the former case. But the reverse is true in the latter case.

-Through clever use of combos according to the environment, the spellcaster can reduce Power costs even further. In the water example, an Air (Soil) school spell cast after a Water school spell could be at 50% cost.

Not trying to unduly complicate the mechanics, but I thought it might be fun, since Bushido's spellcasting is already more intricate and based on rationales than old AD&D's. It seems to me that reducing or increasing Power costs would be a simple way give players give spellcasters clever ways to work in combos and maybe surprise the GM. Another level of situational awareness and tactics for spellcasters. Who have a lot of capabilities to change situtions, but very low AC and HP.

[Marullus]

I think it would work. I am ambivalent about it as an addition and happy either way. I think the confusing part is "what school is this spot?"

If you want to implement it as a special thing for special places (like Mount Fuji) I think that is hood as your prerogative.

[jemmus]

On second thought, let's just stick with RAW. Someday we might have a big influx of new players, and these rule refinements might confuse them. No, the real reason is I think certain schools would end up getting more bonuses than others. For example, Earth more often than Metal. Probably better not to experiment and end up hurting play balance.

[jemmus]

Not sure how the mechanics of this spell work in combat. The question is about what "until detected" (in bold below) means. Until detected by one character or until detected by each character? I'm thinking of handling it this way. Let's say characters Bob, Cate and Dave encounter enemy X. X casts Concealing Cloak on herself. Bob makes his Perception of Hidden Things ST, Cate and Dave fail.

-Bob can take an action against X this detailed turn. Cate and Dave can't.
-Cate and Dave know X is there, so the next detailed turn they can "search" for her, as in the PoHT rules. The search is not an Action, it's a PoHT ST. Cate makes her ST and can attack X. Bob can still attack because he detected X last turn. No new ST needed. Dave's ST fails, he still can't attack.
-The next detailed turn, Dave again fails his ST. No attack.
-The next detailed ST, Dave finally makes his ST and can attack. No more PoHT STs are needed for the rest of the encounter.

I think that would make the Concealing Cloak spell fairly powerful, but not too OP. It kept Cate from attacking for 1 turn, and Dave for 4 turns. But didn't keep Bob from attacking at all.

Or should "searching" be a char's Action for that Action Phase? Bear in mind that detailed turns are only 10 seconds long. Any thoughts?

Concealing Cloak
Kn: 30. Range: Touch. Cost: 2 x LoS. Duration: Special.
The Shugenja makes himself or another character or item into a
Hidden Thing. The Wit ST to detect the Hidden Thing is at a penalty
equal to the Level of Spell when the subject is motionless. Otherwise,
base values apply. The Spell lasts until the subject wishes it to cease
or until the subject is detected This is an ”Augmentation Spell.”

[Marullus]

It only works if the subject is motionless. I think that means it is not useful in combat...

[jemmus]

I read it as, when the subject is motionless, there's a penalty to the PoHD ST equal to the level of the spell. Which implies to me that if the subject is moving, the spell still works, but there's no penalty to the ST. And this is just pure conjecture, but it seems that the game designers would have wanted one of the major monsters to be able to use the spell for offense. Here's the list of spells oni can have (only one from each school). If the oni can only use Concealing Cloak while motionless, then it would be a purely defensive spell and no danger to a PC. But I suppose it could be useful for ambushing approaching PCs.

Again, just conjecture. What do you think? We can decide either way, but what we decide will determine how this spell is used going forward.

Fire: Burning Touch, Smokes of Nai
Water: Binding of Limbs, Concealing Cloak
Wood: Calling Beasts, Shadow Eyes
Metal: Bar Missiles, Mutability of Form
Soil: Angry Earth, Traitor Ground

[jemmus]

I'm about to propose a fairly radical change from the RAW. It's about the cost of lodging for bushi characters. Lodging is the most common expense for characters, and its an unavoidable daily expense. As we know, bushi pay for everything in silver and everyone else pays in copper. Since 1 sp equals 30 cp, bushi pay 30 times more for lodging than non-bushi. So when the a party earns and divides loot, for lodging and services costs non-bushi are getting 30 times wealthier than bushi. (But the cost of goods is the same for all professions). So we have the odd result of ronin bushi Hiroshi having to rely on peasant gakusho Taisho for his expenses. And samurai shugenja Haruto paying in copper like Taisho.

So some ideas for a house rule.
a)Reduce the cost of lodging for bushi to say, 1sp. They would still be paying 6 times more than non-bushi. But it could be more affordable.

b)Pay according to caste, instead according to profession. For example, samurai pay 5sp, ronin pay 1sp, peasants and eta pay 5c.
Either option has the result of making the lower caste characters wealthier in the long run than the higher caste ones.

c)Everyone pays in copper.

d)When dividing loot, bushi get a bigger share. This option lets us keep the RAW, but helps the bushi out with their expenses. We could RP it that that's the custom in Nippon, maybe because bushi have high equipment costs (armor, weapons, arrows). And they're the guys most likely to get wounded or injured in a fight (assuming it isn't a TPK). And the costs for basic services is higher.

I kind of like the d) option best. We wouldn't have to fiddle with prices of goods and service in the RAW. The game world would stay the same; the only difference would be the loot division arrangements between the characters. I'd say that a 20 to 1 ratio might be fair. Say, there is 84 sp to be divided between four party members, two bushi and two non-bushi. The bushi get 40 sp each, the others get 2 sp each. That sounds kind of extreme, but the ratio is still less than the 30 times more that bushi pay for lodging and services.

Thoughts on any of these options? Preferences?

[ffilz]

I'm about to propose a fairly radical change from the RAW. It's about the cost of lodging for bushi characters. Lodging is the most common expense for characters, and its an unavoidable daily expense. As we know, bushi pay for everything in silver and everyone else pays in copper. Since 1 sp equals 30 cp, bushi pay 30 times more for lodging than non-bushi. So when the a party earns and divides loot, for lodging and services costs non-bushi are getting 30 times wealthier than bushi. (But the cost of goods is the same for all professions). So we have the odd result of ronin bushi Hiroshi having to rely on peasant gakusho Taisho for his expenses. And samurai shugenja Haruto paying in copper like Taisho.

So some ideas for a house rule.
a)Reduce the cost of lodging for bushi to say, 1sp. They would still be paying 6 times more than non-bushi. But it could be more affordable.

b)Pay according to caste, instead according to profession. For example, samurai pay 5sp, ronin pay 1sp, peasants and eta pay 5c.
Either option has the result of making the lower caste characters wealthier in the long run than the higher caste ones.

c)Everyone pays in copper.

d)When dividing loot, bushi get a bigger share. This option lets us keep the RAW, but helps the bushi out with their expenses. We could RP it that that's the custom in Nippon, maybe because bushi have high equipment costs (armor, weapons, arrows).
I kind of like this option best. We wouldn't have to fiddle with prices of goods and service in the RAW. The game world would stay the same; the only difference would be the loot division arrangements between the characters. I'd say that a 20 to 1 ratio might be fair. Say, there is 84 sp to be divided between four party members, two bushi and two non-bushi. The bushi get 40 sp each, the others get 2 sp each. That sounds kind of extreme, but the ratio is still less than the 30 times more that bushi pay for lodging and services.

Thoughts on any of these options?

One problem with changing the treasure division is that training costs are the same... So a major avenue of improvement will be shut down for non-bushi. This will particularly hit casters ability to gain more spells or more effect for them (many spells effect is based on the knowledge behind the spell).

For lodging, it might pay to examine Land of the Rising Sun which is what I did for Cold Iron Samurai Adventures (that otherwise leans to the Bushido prices of things). Caste should play into it some, at least for Shugenja (priests caste effectively changes). LotRS doesn't explicitly specify what ronin would pay, but it talks about lodging cost based on appearance of ability to pay where a down on his luck ronin (which Hiroshi currently certainly is) would appear less able to pay.

Hiroshi is in a pickle because he wasn't part of the adventure that got treasure, and then the battle was lost, so he hasn't had an opportunity to earn money. It seems like there should be some kind of rule for slumming ronin, I thought that was part of the situation for ronin. But maybe that's the drive to banditry. If they can't make enough money to live honestly, they turn to banditry. Also note that we are in somewhat of an odd position in Japan of being independent adventures. Most bushi seek to be in service of someone who is going to lodge them on their estates, or pay for their lodging while traveling on business for their patron.

Taisho is happy to pay Hiroshi's lodging as payment for escort, and that may be the way to handle it. The non-bushi who pay less for lodging need bushi for protection on the road...

It probably is true to Japanese society that the bushi would get a bigger share (with the samurai getting the biggest share...), and of course real world information doesn't tell us how Shugenja and Gakusho would be valued... But we need to make sure we don't break viability of the game.

[jemmus]

Agreed, that's the problem with twiddling knobs with RAW. You move one thing, but you don't foresee how that can affect something else down the road. We're playing the 2nd edition Bushido, and it's apparent from the rules that the designers had personally played the game at least somewhat extensively before publishing the rules. (For example, they mention the controversial custom of giving all budo to whoever landed the last blow). Apparently they and the players were satisfied with how the system worked.

If we like the idea of inequal loot division, we can decide on a fair ratio of other than 20:1. As you said, training costs are the same for all professions. Non-bushi need money for that too.

We could go to service providers appraising the character's ability to pay, then quoting a price. The Commerce skill could play a role in that too.

I'll wait for Marullus to weigh in before commenting even further.

[Marullus]

I thought we WERE doing it by caste... I think Haruto was paying Samurai prices.

I think for in-story fiction, that caste pricing makes a lot more sense than class. I think it also makes sense potentially that spoils are divided by caste.

My recommendation, however, is that we both price by caste but also just have a communal treasury for the game. That way each player is paying out of the group strongbox and it doesn't create strange RP when Taisho pays for his Bushi betters (potentially shaming them).

[ffilz]

A communal treasury would work, especially since bushi don't like to actually handle the accounting... Taisho can manage the treasury.

While we are being paid normal wages though, I think each person should just get those and keep them, Taisho can still keep the money and do the accounting.

[jemmus]

To confirm, Movement is not allowed as a secondary action, correct? There this from the rules, but I think they mean it's for a continuation of a primary action. For example, "Hoshi runs to the door and slides it open [primary action, equivalent of a Charge attack]. She looks to see if the ninja has fled into this room [secondary action]."

Perform Action
This Option allows a character to progress in performing some
complicated action during Detailed Time Scale. The action might
require a certain number of these Options to be executed, or each
choice of this Option might represent a whole or partial Task Turn.
The Gamesmaster must decide how this Option will apply based on
the nature of the action that the character wishes to undertake.

[jemmus]

Continuing the discussion on Blessing https://www.unseenservant.us/forum/view ... 59#p629959 here in the Rules Discussion thread. This is some elective reading, because it's me thinking aloud about what we've learned about Bushido so far and some "GMing theory."

The Karma Yoga Blessing has turned to be pretty powerful indeed. The challenge for me as a GM is to design encounters that are challenging to the PCs and players. But without "cheating" and taking prior knowledge of the Blessings factor into setting up the NPC opponent(s). That would be penalizing a player (and the party) for good strategizing.

The PCs have faced seven combat encounters so far, and come on top each time (With the exception of one). Here's what we may have learned from each.

Neno-san - O-bakemono, bakemono-sho and peasants. We saw that it takes an NPC with a high BCS to have much change to do damage to a char in AC 7 heavy armor. We learned that Restrictions can easily take a char out for the duration of the combat.

Bandits - We saw the power of the dai-kyu. Kentaro's bow high damage-dealing bow wiped out most of the bandits before they could they could get into combat. The gakusho Taisho sat out that whole fight searching his inventory and passively watching.

Battle of Okitsu - Was pretty safe for the PCs, but a random die roll (Surrounded) could been the end for Hiroshi, but another random die roll saved him.

Kentaro's duel - The odds are very much against it, but a near perfect storm of rolls after a Critical Success can eliminate a character in one quick detailed scale in one BAP phase of a turn.

The yurei - A the combined arms attacks of a shugenja, a gakusho, a bushi, and two budoka made short work of a strong spell-casting NPC. A spell knocked the NPC prone, and after that is was all over as three NPCs with multiple MNAs kept it down. Had it been Hiroshi and Kentaro with the NPCs, rather than Haruto and Taisho, the outcome might have been very different.

The oni on Fuji-san - Blessings bonuses to BCS allowed early disruptive hits and kept the NPC on the backfoot. A strong physical and spellcasting NPC, but solo vs. several MNA attacks by weaker chars each turn. Again, the spells and physical attacks combined arms combo. And again, what if it had been Kentaro and Hiroshi there, instead of Taisho and Hiroshi?

Monkeys - Just a little incident, nothing new learned. Except maybe about high BAPs, movement in detail time scale, and facing.

Yakuza - The collective party of characters is surprisingly more powerful than it was at the outset. They're only second level, but Buru at 2nd level is pretty mighty indeed. Due to, I think: a) Good char design and optimizing attributes for max Zanshin; and b) training periods. Training to increase bugei skills (and thus BCS) is primary factor toward building a char's effectiveness.

So, my conclusions from all of this?
-The PCs' success so far has been largely due to good decisions and reactions to situations, partly due to whoever happened to be the PC to enter a specific game world environment, and partly due to the harsh but precise world of Bushido dice rolls.
-The effects of spells in Bushido are very different than in many RPGs. I don't see that they're like the combat-oriented offensive spells of AD&D 1e spells or scene-altering/story-changing spells of 5E. I don't see that gakusho have any MASH medic combat healing spells. But spellcasters have a lot of Power to spend per day, and a lot of ways to more subtly influence situations through the day, and also in the instant.
-The path to the Raijin shrine is going to need more pathways for the travelers to choose from. The direct way along the Tokaido highway to the shrine-- the hard-driving haulers' route. Or other ways. Along the paths and through the villages of the wooded and plain of the and vast good lands of the Kanto. Far from the capital. Far east from even the mountains of Kai or Kofu.

[Marullus]

Interesting reflection, thanks!

Don't forget the other game was a TPK, almost twice. I haven't been too worried about it being too easy.

The game results have a high rate of cascade. A critical success or critical failure changes positioning, which is almost always fatal. I am enjoying it, but I think trying to formulate appropriate Challenge Ratings for encounters is impossible and not a goal.

Design for Bushido seems more sensible planning around On... that's harder to do. The fights come on their own.

[jemmus]

Do we know if spellcasters can voluntarily terminate the effects of a spell early? I'm thinking of Hiroshi's Mud spell, which seems to be kind of in everybody's way now. It lasts for 10 minutes x LoC. There's an argument that the shugenja could let it fade away if he wants. But there's also an argument that he invoked an element to create a physical situation on the earth, and he doesn't have control over it once that happens. There's no indication that he has to maintain concentration to keep the effect around. It seems like he could just walk away and it would stay around for 10 mins x LoC.

Maybe he would also have to successfully invoke the element to dispel the effect. For example, cast another successful Mud spell to have the element take the effect away.

[Marullus]

Yep. That's the reason I asked that question in the other thread.

It is easiest to allow them to dispel their own effect.

If that's a concern, then having them pay the cost of the spell again to dispel it seems fair. (Making them roll again to 'cast' it in the uncasting is above that still, but I think that's too far, personally.)

[jemmus]

Alright, let's just keep it simple and let spellcasters dispel the effect.

[ffilz]

I'd like to better understand how and when Placation and Invoke the Kami can be used.

[Marullus]

Placation is odd... it says you mage a Magic BCS and also a Personal Status check. Perhaps it is the first to try and the second to succeed? That's some overkill, though.

Most of the Placation text is on how the Kami wants you to honor it, tying it to the broad range of "success with a favor" results on the status check. I guess that's cool.

So it would be:
* magic BCS to invoke the kami (costs Kami rank)
* magic BCS to cast placation (costs Kami rank)
* (optional dance moves BCS to impress kami)
* status BCS to make the deal

Shrines help, but they either exist or they don't. Making one is an extended task.

Characters add 5 times their Level to Reaction Rolls and effective
Status in dealing with the Gods.

Pious Laymen add their level to BCS for a status check against Kami, but Gakusho don't. Gakusho also need to succeed at a Placation spell to even try... but it implies Pious Laymen and other laity can status check the Kami without Placation? That's not okay.

...Perhaps skip the Placation magic roll/cost. Also, are we okay with Pious Laymen having a bonus over Gakusho?

Buddhists can ALSO invoke spirits of the Buddha (whatever that means...) and they get an NPC Reaction roll instead of a Status check.

Buddhist Gakusho may invoke the intercession of any spirit in
their pantheon, from the Buddha down to the minor, helpful spirits of
that religion.
If the spirit is called for a trivial, or worse, an evil purpose, it will
become very angry and seek to punish the priest. Such an act is, at
the very least, a Sin.
Invoking the spirit successfully allows the Gakusho to address
requests for aid to it, offer it something, or to speak to the spirit
directly. The spirit will react according to the Non-Player Reaction
die roll. If a very hostile reaction is indicated, however, the spirit will
very likely just leave, rather than attacking the priest.

...

The question here from Ffilz is "when can this be used." We need to resolve two parts.

1) Do we have small spirits (low rank, low capability) as well as major ones (Gods, high rank)? Can we just talk to a lesser wind spirit or is it Fujiin?

2) how common do we assume shrines are?

Summoning aid in scenes appears to be the main capability for Shinto Gakusho but it's not described enough. It doesn't specify timeframes that I can see (unlike specifying 'minutes' for healing and blessing which means it can only be done outside of combat). Gakusho would be more useful if Invoke could be done in or out of Detailed Time.

In my campaign, I will make these assumptions:
* There are plentiful minor, helpful spirits of low rank and minor capability.
* Shrines are common - found at any inn or settlement and with minor roadside shrines being reasonably located.

The hard part is that it is all narrative - it is on the PC to creatively know what they wish to ask for - and will usually cost a compromise so they will be writing a lot of honor to the kami into their tales and enshrined them at temples.

[jemmus]

I don't think pious laymen should get a bonus over gakusho. I'm guessing there was a rules drafting oversight/glitch.

In RL Japan, there's a shrine in about every village. Most of them don't have any staff around. A kamunushi maintains them once in a while. They're just little buildings by a kami place-- a rock, tree, waterfall, etc. They may or may not have a torii gate.

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