Rules Discussion

[ffilz]

Thanks for those thoughts. It sure has been a struggle figuring out how Gakusho fit into the game mechanically. It feels like this snow scene should have been an opportunity for a Gakusho to call on the Kami for assistance, but it just was not clear. And then sometimes when things ARE clear for Gakusho, the BCS makes it not worth trying. Some things are clearly designed to make one roll and use it's margin of success to boost another, but when your BCS is < 10, the first roll is more likely to penalize the second. And the potential payoff isn't that good.

Blessing is good, but it's such a short duration once invoked that it seems mostly useful for combat. It might be a bit more useful if it was made clear that it also can be used for any single task resolution (which might include several rolls, actually, with that, adding a blessing bonus to one of those two roll situations would make a real difference, add margin of success from a BCS 16-18 roll to a second BCS 16 roll makes a real difference, especially for say invoing Kami where the spirits rank is subtracted from the BCS.

[jemmus]

As a GM playing the NPCs' side, it seems to me that gakusho and shugenja in Bushido are plenty strong. Your spells can change outcomes of things, very easily. And they have. For example:
-The fight with the yureighost in the forest under Fuji-san
-The fight with the oni on Fuji-san
-The fight with the yakuza in the warehouse. Many characters rolling d20s, and those Blessings bonuses added up over the course of the fight.

Compare that to encounters with the same characters by mundane fighters (bushi, budoka, any ninja flanking/stealth specialists). They could easily not survived any encounter so far, I think. It could easily have gone a very different way... Such is the beauty of the Bushido rules.

TBC

[Marullus]

Blessings on non-combat actions is a good idea - it should be good for at least one roll. Being blessed before a social roll (with our low status) would be a major difference.

We aren't doing enough with On, or with Status, I think. Status stays low until you begin taking on responsibilities and we're still wandering nobodies. The social game (including convincing Kami) will be very different once you have status as a Kamabuchi of a Shrine. I hoped that Haruto could help more with wind spirits with his clan status as Chosen One of Fujiin.

The examples Jemmus gives are "when supernatural things are relevant." I see Ffilz question as "how can I be relevant when we're having mundane challenges by asking the supernatural for help?" I think the snow scene would have been a good place for Kami, as it lended itself to supernatural solutions - a Bushi can't fight a storm. The bigger issue is that the Gakusho needs more time to summon and bargain with spirits -- the problem needs to be significant and intractable but not immediate in order to merit a Kami solution (like a long blizzard). I figured that Haruto could buy us shelter-in-place if we stopped moving, which would give Taisho the time to summon and bargain with a low-rank wind spirit and ask for something more. (It would be fun to bargain with a wind spirit when we're on a pilgrimage from Fuujin to Rajiin.) Akemi seeing "oh there's an inn right there!" presented a mundane solution that moved things forward, but in this case, I think lessened Taisho's agency.

[jemmus]

Nice discussion here. Yes, we could have done more with the blizzard encounter. This game has been kind of languishing for a while with not very frequent player or GM posts. I thought you guys might be busy, so I kind of abbreviated and didn't take it to our usual level of detail. If we're ready to continue that, let's do it.

Since both Fuujin and Raijin are weather gods, you're both correct-- one or both of them are direct causes of a blizzard blowing across a part of Nippon. To the common person, it's a physical world snowstorm with strong winds. To a gakusho with knowledge of the kami and insights into them, a blizzard is an opportunity seek further understanding of the nature of kami. It's similar for shugenja Haruto, because he's dedicated to Fuujin. (Maybe the Pious Layman rules apply here?)

Status rules
I need to refresh myself on them and bone up on those more to be able to apply the concept to the story/scenes. The way I initially understood them, the social rules are used when one character wants to compel another character to do something. (Remember how we lost a player because of those rules? He didn't like the concept of the rules forcing his PC to do or not do something). Or when a character wants to persuade another to do something. In the present situation, we have Haruto having given up the place of honor at the front of the line to help the group as a whole. That could cost him some comparative social prestige.

Not that the other characters aren't grateful. But he's made himself more a member of the nakama in-group of peers than a socially superior aristocrat able to domineer and command. But I think (if I understand the rules correctly), it would only come up when there is a conflict of opinions or conflict of interests within the group. Say, the foreman wants to take the highway, and Haruto wants to take a detour along smaller roads. I suppose it could come up that Taisho, Hiroshi, or Buru have Status checks to consider, as they support or oppose certain things.

On
In this game, we went with milestone-based level advancement to 2nd level, for these reasons, I think.:
-The neophyte characters investigated and gained knowledge of their world, and acted well based on the knowledge. (Who knew what a o-bakemono, or a Shinto shrine, or a samurai-governed village was at the time? Who knew how Nippon highway bandits behave, or how powerful the are?)
-The characters had survived and emerged all alive after each of their encounters. Both, the same as miniatures wargamed. The first: The fight on dark side of a mountain below the shrine. The second, involving tracking bandits to a camp of scattered stones.
-The PCs learned and understood the political and social lay of the land in Kai province and probably most of the rest of Nippon.
-They went down the road, avoided a fox Kitsune kami trickster, and made it to Kofu, the capital of Kai. And one more-- through a wartime checkpoint.

To me, that's well-deserved graduation to 2nd Level. Amazingly well done

[ffilz]

One of my goals in this discussion is to understand what Placation and Invoke Kami actually do, how hard it is, and how to determine when it might be feasible to use.

Taisho is pretty close to useless in a fight. The Blessing and Healing powers are really nice, but for the most part, they help the others.

Battling the Oni and the spirit were cool encounters where Taisho's Exorcism was directly helpful, but most of the time, it feels like Taisho is just a supporting character.

So I'm starting to look for how Placation and Invoke Kami might be useful, and then how hard they actually are. In order to be feasible for Taisho, he pretty much has to have access to minor Kami. Even the lowest rank minor Kami at Rank 3 is going to reduce Taisho's BCS to 8. He can boost BCS by making offerings or being in a shrine. Or a Blessing, but a Blessing will only help if the Invoke Kami if it takes a few detailed turns, or we make a ruling that a Blessing can also be used for a single roll for something like this that might be longer.

[jemmus]

Fujin (p.18 of book 2) are listed as minor kami. I'm not sure why they list them as plural, because there's only one Fuujin. I'm going to assume these are avatars/minor physical manifestations of the kami.

The karma-yoga prophecy ability (p.35 of book 1) could be useful. It allows the party to rewind and choose a different course of action. But that's more about avoiding a bad situation than about being useful in combat.

Continuing about On
We can go back to Leveling based on tracking Budo/Shugendo and On if we want. Concern for On adds another dimension to the game, and it's one that that gives Bushido a kind of unique flavor. You guys would have to help me keep track of the awards and keep your sheets updated. I think we decided that doubling experience awards is appropriate for PBP.

Of course, it's downtime training that really builds PCs' power. For that, they need money. So that's another consideration, in addition to earning Budo/Shugendo and On. PCs also need the GM has to actually let them have some downtime. I think GMs have to be careful about that. The PCs shouldn't consistently have a lot of wealth and a lot of downtime, so that they don't grow into super characters too quickly.

[Marullus]

I think our milestone levelling is appropriate. Thinking about On does drive a different type of game with a lot more dueling on the road... I think that would drag a PbP game more than a tabletop one. I think On is important here only as we're talking Personal Status. If we think about what our status should be, and with what groups, we're covered.

I don't remember losing a player over the status system... (It doesn't really force a PC to do something. It is when you make a request of someone and they agree, disagree, or demand something in return. It doesn't say anything about forcing another to like it. Yes, I suppose an NPC could use a social roll on a PC, but that's more of a "they demand this of you - do you have enough status to ignore the request without consequence?" It still isn't an ability to compel.)

Back to the Kami:

• Part of it is on the GMs to make things happen that are about the supernatural. (I think the Mount Fuji stuff was well done.) But it can't happen all the time.
• Part of it is allowance for the player to involve the supernatural. As a GM, we need to have a persistant issue that can be solved outside of detailed time. As a player, we need to bring this in by incorporating roadside shrines in our roleplay and being intentional about Invoking the Kami.
• I think Placation should be ignored. It is a magical test and effort expenditure only to allow you to THEN engage in a status check. The Pious Laymen can supposedly do a status check without it. The magic spell does nothing to HELP you placate the Kami.
• Actually, one better. I think that Placation should be a linked test, where the margin of success adds to your Status Check BCS and margin of failure is not relevant. This makes Gakusho far better at actually dealing with the Kami and doesn't become a double-edged sword.
• We all agree that the spirit world is everpresent and permissive. "There are Kami everywhere" and Gakusho PCs can have some creative license.

[jemmus]

spanningtree, who was playing bushi Ito Namguchi, quit because of the Status system. I think that was during the trial with the ninyo over the killing of the two peasants. That's when we first starting figuring out Status. I have to read through the Status rules again. It's been a long time.

Interesting about providing supernatural encounters to keep gakusho involved. Nippon is full of all kinds of supernatural things, so that just comes up naturally. Of course, the PCs' decisions along the way affect that as well.

OK, if Frank agrees, we'll stay with milestone leveling. But I'd like to keep On a consideration for the PCs, if not something that we track in detail. PCs need a lot of it for the higher levels.
Level Experience On
------1---------0--------0
------2--------10-------10
------3--------50-------50
------4-------100------100
------5-------500------500
------6------1000-----1000

[jemmus]

I can't quite figure out the Status rules (pp.22-23). A character's a Personal Status is determined by Birth Rank (Low, Middle, High), Level in their profession, and On (1 point of status per 50 On). For Group Status, the rules give the example of a Peasant caste Bushi. In some situations, he would be treated as a Peasant for comparative status, in others as a Bushi. But I don't see any specific rules for taking caste into account.

Here are some Personal Status calculations, for examples.
Haulers foreman - Middle Birth Rank Peasant = 20. Level 0 = 0. 10 On (let's say) from the yakuza fight / 50 = 0.2. 20.2 Personal Status. Raw BCS = 20.2 / 5 = 4.
Haruto - Middle Rank = 20. Level 2 = 10. He had 65 On after the Fuji pilgrimage, so let's use that figure for now. (We need to add some On for the monkeys and yakuza encounters). 65 / 50 = 1.3. Total: 31.3. Raw BCS = 31.3 / 5 = 6.

So, let's say Haruto and the foreman are each trying to persuade a 3rd party (who is not in either person's social group) to do something. Haruto's samurai caste, compared to the foreman's peasant caste, doesn't count for anything? Or am I missing something?

(There's also Group Status to consider. At this moment, the party has two groups.
A) The haulers and their yojimbo guards Hiroshi, Buru, and Akemi, employed by the same employer for the hauling mission.
B) The group as a whole, including Haruto, who are traveling and lodging together.
I'll save the discussion of the members' comparative Group Status for when we figure out how caste works into this).

[Marullus]

Quick answer (not much internet here):
Group status is only used in-full when both people are within the same group. Comparing across groups multiplies by the Status Factor under 1062.3.

[jemmus]

Some Bushido Basics
ffilz and Marullus, please let us know about any inaccuracies you spot, and please feel free to add to or comment.

General
-It's a "roll under" 1d20 system. A roll under your chance of success score is what you want.
-The chance of success number (usually 1-20) is called the Base Chance of Success (BCS). If your BCS is 11 and you roll 1-11, that's a hit/success.
-Hit Points, Armor Class, and rolling for weapon damage are basically like in AD&D 5E. Higher AC is better for a PC's protection. Example: If your AC is 4, your opponent rolls at 1d20-4 to hit. There are no AC bonuses for something like “Dexterity.”
-1s are Critical Successes and 20s are Critical Failures. If you get either, you automatically hit or miss. With either roll, you roll a d20 again on another Crit
results table. A succession of good or bad results can result in a perfect storm of accumulated damage on a foe. Or vice versa....
-Even if the character's BCS for the d20 roll is 0 or 20 or above, a 1 is always a success and a 20 is always a failure.
-BCS is 1/5th of the character's score in the skill, rounded down. "Always rounded down," as the rules say. If the skill is a Bonus Skill for the char, its level is added to the BCS. Example: Taro is a 1st level bushi (fighter) with kenjutsu (swordmanship) skill of 60. Kenjutsu is a Bonus Skill for bushi. His BCS for a katana attack is 60 / 5 = 12. +1 for it being a Bonus Skill for bushi = 13 BCS. A roll of 13 or under, minus the opponent's AC, is a hit.
Saving throws are at 1/3 of the Attribute score. For example, Taro's Strength Attribute is 25 and he needs to burst through a wooden wall to escape attackers. His Saving Throw is 25 / 3 = 8.3, rounded up to 9. He needs a 9 or under to succeed. (Players, correct me if I'm wrong about the rounding rule here, but I think this is what we determined).

Combat
-Range, facing, terrain, elevation, and obstacles all provide important to-hit modifiers. They're all pretty common sense. An unseen strike from behind has more than twice the bonuses to BCS than a glimped strike from the side. Many combats are like RPG wargaming. Usually GM will provide grid or hex maps to help with clear visualization.
-Bows are, comparatively, amazingly powerful in terms of HP damage inflicted.

Character Generation
-There's no rolling. Players have a set and limited amount of 60 points to distribute among six Attributes. The six Attributes and Strength, Deftness, Speed, Wit, and Will.
-The BCS figure to succeed on a roll-under d20 roll depends on the character's score in the Skill. The score in the Skill comes from its from
-The relevant Attribute scores add together, then are divided by 5 to determine the d20 Base Chance of Success (BCS) for a roll for success (BCS roll) for that skill. Most combat Skills combine and average Strength, Deftness, and Will Attribute scores.
-Players have points to distribute between six Attributes:
Strength - Determines the obvious uses of strength and bonuses to damage in combat. (Note that Encumbrance is a pretty big deal in Bushido).
Deftness - Also a primary factor determining BCS scores in many combat/action skills. Maybe the most heavily weighted one for ninja Bonus Skills?
Speed – Determines the amount of distance covered per turn in Strategic time scale and Detailed (combat) time scales. And the Maximum Number of Actions (MNA) per 10-second turn. Also determines saving throw figures for many STs. It seems that this attribute is about both physical swiftness and reflexes reaction time.
Health – The base score is the PC's initial HP. When leveling up, bonuses for strong health apply (just like D&D). Health saving throws of course come up too.
Wit - Important for spellcasters. Also determines Learning Rate, which is crucial for training up any combat or peaceful arts skill.
Will - Pretty self-explanatory. A very important attribute, because its score figures into about every combat skill (that I've seen).

Here's a little treatise on character creation in Bushido. https://microphonesofmadness.wordpress. ... nt-page-1/

Levels and Training
-Leveling up give a PC another Hit Die roll. It also adds to the BCS bonus for a Bonus Skill. (For example, a level 2 bushi fighter gets +2 to his BCS for kenjutsu (swordmanship).
-Downtime Training - The character spends time training in a skill. Training can really increase a PC's score in a skill, thereby giving her a higher BCS. Training can make a character very powerful, more than leveling up does. In this game, GM will conservatively award downtime for training upon successful completion of missions/adventures.

[Marullus]

If you look at the positioning examples, it gives an example of two medium weapon users and helps understand base movement allowance (BMA). You can also apply the logic to see how long and short weapons matter, too. The main thing here is that we were (I was) under the assumption that the "close to engage" action allowed repositioning with half BMA within a fight so opponents could circle each other and try to gain advantages based on their maneuverability. We then realized that, by the book, that's all over once one opponent engages the other (and sets the distance). After that the only options are to move 1 yard along with an attack as a Combat Action on your primary action turns (secondary action attacks are half-BCS and no movement), alter position (which is only to stand up or lie down and requires a Save to do it while engaged) or the rather dangerous Turn and Flee. I'll paste this over to rules discussion for Jemmus to see if we want to allow a house rule action to permit Alter Position to pass a save and move half-BMA instead of stand-up/lie-down.

Jemmus - thoughts?

We didn't like the "hit each other endlessly" slog. Do we want to allow dynamic repositioning as an Alter Position action option?

[Rex]

Not having been through combat take this with a huge grain of salt.

Would the positioning really speed things up that much? Or is it more that the weapons seem to be underpowered or the characters over powered, combination of both?

In real combat relatively few blows are actually landed compared to say D&D style combat, but when they do land, they often end the fight even if not an immediately lethal blow. So positioning, parrying, blocking etc are all very important and more of what goes on then actually landing a blow. Although you are always trying to land a blow or at least trying to put yourself in position where you can when an opportunity opens up.

[Marullus]

Would the positioning really speed things up that much? Or is it more that the weapons seem to be underpowered or the characters over powered, combination of both?

In real combat relatively few blows are actually landed compared to say D&D style combat, but when they do land, they often end the fight even if not an immediately lethal blow. So positioning, parrying, blocking etc are all very important and more of what goes on then actually landing a blow. Although you are always trying to land a blow or at least trying to put yourself in position where you can when an opportunity opens up.

Positioning can be critical:
There's a +5 penalty to hit someone who is prone and a -5 penalty for them to act
There's a +5 to the attacker and -5 to the target if you are in a side facing
There's a +10 to the attacker and -10 to the target if you are in a rear facing
Plus lesser modifiers for charging, blinding, missing limbs, tretcherous footing, etc.
There's also a -1 penalty for every obstacle within your weapon's range (allies, walls, ceilings... not floors.)

Getting a +10 on a d20 roll really makes a difference on hitting. Your starting BCS is likely to be in the 10-13 range, minus your foes armor class, plus the modifiers above.

That said, combat is not normally over from a single hit unless it is a critical success. A critical success normally happens on a 1, but when you stack those modifiers on, the range of a crit widens too. If your adjusted BCS is 15-24, then a crit is on a 1 or 2. If it is 25-34 then a crit is on a 1,2, or 3. Critical hits are most often debilitating and will likely end a fight. (Rolling a critical failure is equally as bad and has killed more than one samurai PC.) Side note: This is the point of the Silent Kill skill. It has a much lower BCS but any hit is a critical hit, and if you miss with it, then you roll a normal attack roll afterwards.

So, having a high enough BMA to allow you to circle your foe during an encounter can be well worth skipping an attack to get it. Especially if they're a slower Bushi warrior who can't keep up. Conversely, if someone gets in YOUR rear facing, it is definitely worth spending your action to try to shift! It looks like rules-as-written you can only either "Turn and Flee" to get away from them or fight with the -10 penalty to your BCS - you can't turn.

[Rex]

Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

[jemmus]

I'll have to double-check about changing facing in combat. I thought we could do that. But maybe it just never came up.

[jemmus]

Something we learned about multiple attacks in a turn: usually they have just half the chance to hit-- but the same 5% (1 in 20) chance of being a Critical Failure. So there are some risk/reward considerations for secondary attacks. Less chance of success, same risk of a negative effect.

At higher levels, Zanshin of higher than 1 can allow secondary attacks at full BCS. But I think a butt strike or bo second attack are still at half BCS. They're part of first strike, so Zanshin for a secondary attack phase does apply.

(Real gameplay example. - My first PC Toshizo almost died that way. Missed with the first attack (at full BCS), rolled a 1 on the secondary attack (at half BCS). Per the Crit Failure table, he slipped and fell prone. The NPC got the to hit bonus for prone target, of course. And the Crit Failure table said an ST was needed to Alter Position and stand, which he failed. Two turns prone and unable to attack back. He only survived because another PC took out the NPC).

[Marullus]

Not being able to maneuver once engaged (I thought we could Close to Combat) came up and impacted Kentaro's duel. You identified that it didn't work.

...also a great example of a single critical hit ending a conflict. It was a big, dramatic duel, allowing his friends to flee, that ended up with him getting his arm cut off, knocked out, and bleeding out in the field from one critical hit.

[Rex]

Looks like a fun duel.

[jemmus]

Yes, that was a epic and dramatic fight.

Hmm.... I reviewed again, and still understand the rules the same way. I don't think changing facing and moving are possible in the same Action Phase. From the below, I think changing facing is an Alter Position action that takes an entire Action Phase. (If Engaged, a Speed saving throw is needed). Then, another action is needed to move up to a yard and attack.

I don't see that sidestepping or stepping back a yard and attacking in the same phase isn't allowed. But to attack, the character must end with the target still in its front facing. (I.e., in the 90 degrees wedge in front of the character). I suppose flanking by sidestepping could somehow work, if the opponent were immobile or otherwise unable to react. If not, it seems that the opponent can always counter the attempt by also moving a yard and attacking.

1115.2 PRIMARY OPTIONS
These Options are usable on any Primary Available Action Phases, including the Base Action Phase.
Alter Position
This Option allows the character to stand up from a prone position, kneel down, lie down, etc. If he chooses this Option while Engaged, the character must make a Speed Saving Throw in order to succeed.

Combat Action
This Option allows a character to make an attack using the combat rules in section 11 17.0. The character is allowed to move up to 1 yard during the execution of the Option. This movement may occur before or after the attack is to occur, but must be specified before making the actual die roll to resolve the attack.