Pregame Discussion

[Rex]

I suspect there will be substantial overlap on languages. The common human, demi-human, and humanoid will probably be covered but they should be anyway (that is why they are common).

[dmw71]

By the by… while I really like the idea of “quantum languages,” if there are indeed 10+ players, it might end up feeling extremely gamey, because we’d have so much linguistic potentiality that I doubt we’d ever end up unable to communicate with anything. I’m a rather gamey guy, but I offer this up as a consideration depending on where you sit on the style spectrum.

I am hoping/trusting that character creation will be completed independently, and there isn't any coordinated effort to make sure every language is covered. But, even if there is, there are still fluency levels and chances of failure/misunderstanding, so just knowing a language is no surefire thing.

I suspect there will be substantial overlap on languages. The common human, demi-human, and humanoid will probably be covered but they should be anyway (that is why they are common).

I'm also counting on this.

[beniliusbob]

By the by… while I really like the idea of “quantum languages,” if there are indeed 10+ players, it might end up feeling extremely gamey, because we’d have so much linguistic potentiality that I doubt we’d ever end up unable to communicate with anything. I’m a rather gamey guy, but I offer this up as a consideration depending on where you sit on the style spectrum.

I am hoping/trusting that character creation will be completed independently, and there isn't any coordinated effort to make sure every language is covered. But, even if there is, there are still fluency levels and chances of failure/misunderstanding, so just knowing a language is no surefire thing.

I suspect there will be substantial overlap on languages. The common human, demi-human, and humanoid will probably be covered but they should be anyway (that is why they are common).

I'm also counting on this.

Ah, sorry for the confusion... I was referring to this option you mentioned considering:

2. Leave known languages slots open, filling them during gameplay (automatically, through exposure).

I think that "quantum" or "virtual" languages is a cool way to play, but a bit "meta" or "gamey," and possibly in conflict with some of your other game goals. So, if it is off the table, that would make sense to me! But I'm honestly happy to play however you decide fits the campaign.

[dmw71]

I was referring to this option you mentioned considering:

2. Leave known languages slots open, filling them during gameplay (automatically, through exposure).

I think that "quantum" or "virtual" languages is a cool way to play, but a bit "meta" or "gamey," and possibly in conflict with some of your other game goals.

Good point. I actually forgot that was still an open idea -- on the boards. I kind of decided against using that, I just forgot to officially announce/update it.

[dmw71]

Just added a Human Races of the Flanaess post in the Character Generation Rules topic.

These are not required (e.g. you can be just a "plain" human) if you want, but these are detailed for some extra Greyhawk flavor.

[dmw71]

Just a quick note to add that I had an idea earlier today that I'm pretty excited about.

I still have a way to go before this one will be ready to start, but it is something I am still very much casually working on (and frequently thinking about).

[Rex]

Hint?

[dmw71]

Just a quick note to add that I had an idea earlier today that I'm pretty excited about.

Hint?

Hmm... well, I'm almost afraid to share.

My revelation yesterday should probably have been much more obvious, much earlier... but, at least it finally hit me, right?

So, T1 (or perhaps, more T1-T4) is all about the (re-) rise of evil cultists, right?

Until now, I've been busy focusing on Hommlet (which is still very important). Rebranding NPCs, detailing the different shops and locations, etc...

But...

It occurred to me yesterday that what I really should be focusing on is the cult. Who are they? Why do they exist? What is their big plan? What smaller missions and objectives do they have that will build to this master plan of theirs?

Then: What signs of this cult uprising attempt, or what sort of disruptions will the cult carrying out their plans have on the locals?


Really, it's just a shift in my focus, but it's a significant enough shift that it's completely changing how I am going about preparing the module. Focus on the bad guys.

In fact, I feel like once I get the cult and their plans fully detailed, I'll be prepared enough to kick this things off. Modifying NPCs and building minor details on the fly should be easy enough.

[Rex]

An excellent and appropriate shift. I am patiently looking forward to this. Probably should do some more work on my character's background.

[hedgeknight]

Cool. I love cultists. I'm eager to see how you run this one.
Like Rex, I need to tighten up on my character.

[dmw71]

Cool. I love cultists. I'm eager to see how you run this one.

Me, too!

I’m going to really dedicate some time to figuring out what the cult looks like. And what their plans are.

That Iuz actually makes his home in the Flanaess and not some other plane — it’ll be fun to detail his organization. He, obviously, won’t be directly involved in the small time affairs you guys will initially be dealing with, but the more you guys disrupt his plans…. .

[GreyWolfVT]

Am I the only one that is sitting around quietly and patiently waiting?

[Rex]

Am I the only one that is sitting around quietly and patiently waiting?

Probably, LOL.

[dmw71]

We'll get there.

I finally got around to catching up on all the private forums. If there are still any outstanding questions I'm missing from anyone, please let me know.

[GreyWolfVT]

The only question here is Dave is my character approved even though I completed it before any changes were made to rules, and so forth? Any changes the GM/DM needs me to make?

[dmw71]

The only question here is Dave is my character approved even though I completed it before any changes were made to rules, and so forth? Any changes the GM/DM needs me to make?

Reviewing all the characters is honestly going to be the last thing I do.

Most likely, though, you will need to update your character to comply with the rules as they're now set. Aside from languages, there really shouldn't be too much work required.

[dmw71]

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Note: Time to get the kids to bed, so I'm logging off -- probably for the night.

I am, however, liking how the below is coming together.

But I may be off.


Feel free to share any thoughts, either for or against the general idea being proposed below.

---

Brainstorming

I still want to keep the amount of house ruling down to a minimum, but last night I started thinking about hit points.

As detailed on page 82 of the DMG:

It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we
are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of
damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand
five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points?
Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to
withstand damage — as indicated by constitution bonuses — and a
commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death
situations, the “sixth sense” which warns the individual of some otherwise
unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical
protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual
ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the
immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

The example that follows:

Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This
character would have an average of 5½ hit points per die, plus a constitution
bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the
character does only a small amount of actual physical harm — the sword thrust
that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the
character due to the fighter’s exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability
which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However,
having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be
covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a
long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical
peak of 95 hit points.

It's the last line in the example that I'm trying to address.

Yes, it will take a long period of rest to recover from actual physical damage. But the loss hit points, where actual physical damage is avoided due to sixth sense or luck, should recover much more quickly. I'm of the believe that an unlucky but otherwise unharmed character would be shaken, for sure, but able to right oneself relatively quickly. Certainly more quickly than the rules as written dictate.

I really (really!) like the idea of having two different pools of hit points -- one pool representing physical damage, the other pool representing everything else (e.g. sixth sense, luck, combat experience, etc...).

Ben, of Questing Beast fame, explains this far better than I could in his 'Fixing Hit Points' video, especially beginning at the 1:33 mark where he begins discussing "grit" and "flesh" as the two pools.

I'd like to implement something similar in this game.

I like, how earlier in the video, the combat experience and luck aspect of hit points were described as being "hit protection" instead of hit points, in the traditional hit points equate to physical damage sense.


Of the various different alternative systems detailed in Ben's video above, I'm partial to Logan Knight's solution (@4:25 mark) where your hit point total at first level will be your 'flesh' total. Period. As new hit points are gained by increasing in level, those hit points (from level two on) initialize and grow your 'grit' point total.

Per the current hit point rules:

Fighter: 5+1d5
Cleric: 4+1d4
Thief: 3+1d3
Magic-User: 2+1d4

The resulting total from the current rule will denote your character's 'flesh' score.

---

Note: If/when a class begins with multiple hit die at first level (e.g. ranger, monk), only the first hit die will be used to determine the 'flesh' score for the character in question.

The second hit die amount in the above scenario will consist of the initial funding of that character's 'grit' total (which, for all other classes, begins at zero).

---

It reasons that a fighter would be more hearty than a magic-user, for instance, and can withstand more actual physical punishment.

Except when a class has two hit die at first level (as detailed above), a first level character will begin with zero 'grit' points.


Under normal circumstances, your 'grit' points begin to accumulate beginning at second level. Hit points at second level will be determined rules as written (e.g. 1d10 for a fighter, 1d8 for a cleric, etc...), and this amount will be your 'grit' total.

This 'grit' total will continue to increase with each new level, reflecting the experience your character has accumulated.


Constitution Bonus
At first level only, any constitution bonus is applied to your character's 'flesh' score.

At second level and beyond, any constitution bonus is applied to your character's 'grit' score.


Example:

Filburn, a first level fighter (12 constitution = no bonus):

1st: 5 + [1d5] (3) = 8

Total
Flesh: 8
Grit: 0


At second level, Filburn rolls a 6 for new hit points:

Filburn @ 2nd Level: [1d10]=6

Total
Flesh: 8
Grit: 6


At third level, Filburn rolls a 9 for new hit points:

Filburn @ 3rd Level: [1d10]=9

Total
Flesh: 8
Grit: 15 (6 + 9)


And so on.


During his next adventure, however, poor Filburn gets caught in the path of a 'Fireball' spell cast by a sixth level magic-user causing 21 points of damage after a failed saving throw:

Fireball @ 6th Level: [_6d6]=(3+4+2+6+3+3)=21

---

Filburn save vs Spells (16): [1d20]=12

The resulting blast does bad things to Filburn, and is very close to being fatal.

Total
Flesh: 0 (8 - 8)
Grit: 0 (15 - 23 (remainder: 8))


An interesting coincidence -- zero hit points.

Still from page 82 of the DMG:

When any creature is brought to 0 hit points (optionally as low as –3 hit
points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0), it is unconscious. In
each of the next succeeding rounds 1 additional (negative) point will be lost
until –10 is reached and the creature dies.

In the above example, Fliburn would be unconscious.

So, yes, being reduced to exactly zero hit points ('flesh') will render a character unconscious.


I will rule, however, that if reduced to exactly zero hit points, the character avoids the risk of falling into a comatose state, as detailed in the first sentence of the following quote, still from page 82 of the DMG.

Any character brought to 0 (or fewer) hit points and then revived will remain in
a coma for 1-6 turns. Thereafter, he or she must rest for a full week, minimum.
He or she will be incapable of any activity other than that necessary to move
slowly to a place of rest and eat and sleep when there. The character cannot
attack, defend, cast spells, use magic devices, carry burdens, run, study,
research, or do anything else. This is true even if cure spells and/or healing
potions are given to him or her, although if a heal spell is bestowed the
prohibition no longer applies.

If any creature reaches a state of –6 or greater negative points before being
revived, this could indicate scarring or the loss of some member, if you so choose.
For example, a character struck by a fireball and then treated when at –9 might
have horrible scar tissue on exposed areas of flesh — hands, arms, neck, face.

All of the above will remain true, except...

This line will no longer stand:

Thereafter, he or she must rest for a full week, minimum.

A character can resume adventuring (at their own risk) as long as they have at least one 'flesh' point.




Recovering Grit
If able, it is possible to recover lost 'grit' points after resting for a full turn (e.g. 10 minutes).

Recovering 'grit' points in this manner:

1. Is only possible if a character has at least one 'flesh' point; and
2. Is limited in attempts to the number of hit die the character has.
   
   
   ---

   In other words, unless a monk or a ranger, a first level character has one hit die. They can only spend one hit die to recover 'grit' points in this manner, regardless of how long they actually spend resting.
   

   ---

Continuing the example with Filbin, he will have three hit die at third level... except, he also has zero 'flesh' points.

Each full turn (10 minutes) spent resting, a character can spend one hit die to recover any missing 'grit' points. Except for a ranger or monk, at first level, with one hit die, this can unless


is able to recover a single hit die worth of 'grit' damage, per their class.





So, after 10 minutes of rest, Filburn would be able

can spend one or more Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, up to the character’s maximum number of Hit Dice, which is equal to the character’s level.



Continuing on page 82 of the DMG:

[Rex]

I have no issue with the idea. It does bring up a question and thought.

How does magic/divine healing, potions, and magic items work? Always Grit first?

No one but me will like this suggestion but here it is anyways. You could have a critical not double damage but several options. Eliminate all Grit, come straight off HP no matter how many Grit they have, or the usual double or max damage. This makes Crits much more deadly and the ability to kill even a high level fighter with one shot is a possibility now. Maybe to counter it add Con bonus to HP at each level so HP do go up, just slower than before.

[cybersavant]

how does this work for multiclass characters?

[dmw71]

How does magic/divine healing, potions, and magic items work? Always Grit first?

I was expecting this question.

I'm not sure... yet.

I'm actually leaning towards 'flesh' first, if not exclusively. No, first.

Like, taking aspirin when you have a headache. It numbs or masks the actual, physical pain.

Maybe to counter it add Con bonus to HP at each level so HP do go up, just slower than before.

I was actually thinking character level.

Not every character will have a constitution bonus (my guess, statistically, that most actually won't), but every character will have a level, and hopefully gain more. So, at first level, every character gets +1 to their 'flesh' score; so an immediate bump. At second level, another +1 to their 'flesh' score (+2 total). Etc...

You could have a critical not double damage but several options. Eliminate all Grit, come straight off HP no matter how many Grit they have, or the usual double or max damage.

It would be yet another house rule, but I had been toying with the idea of just tying an xp bonus to natural 20's, instead of a combat bonus.

But also...or instead...

Having damage dice explode.

Suddenly, the lowly dart can become quite dangerous. And daggers become much more useful (as they actually were).