Project Overview

[hedgeknight]

Which hills, asks the guy who youthfully tromped around Covington, Hillsville, and a few other places...

More in the southwestern corner - Clinch Mountains and Rural Retreat region.

Stalking, still hunting, and drives are how I hunt. Can't sit still, I just go nuts. Probably explains how I can juggle so many games as relaxation, LOL.

I used to love to still hunt; I'm out of shape now.

Nice pics Dave!

[Rex]

I am out of shape too, but still get around well enough for still hunting. One of my goals for this spring and summer is to try to get in a little better shape. We will see.

[dmw71]

Update:
I have wasted spent many hours researching the legality of publishing content using the bullywug and/or froghemoth.

Because neither are included in the 'Systems Reference Document (SRD)' (neither the Creative Commons (CC-BY-4.0) or the OGL 1.0a version), the only way to do legally do it will be to publish the adventure on the Dungeon Masters Guild which operates under its own license:

Can I use creatures like the beholder and mind flayer, which the OGL lists as “product identity,” in my DMsGuild title?
Yes. Product identity exclusions apply only to publishing under the OGL. Product identity has no meaning under the DMsGuild program. Throw in a beholder, make it two!

A search on the Adventure Lookup website for "bullywug" and the AD&D ruleset returns seven results, with five being TSR-published modules and the remaining two appearing in Dungeon Magazine (Issues 22 and 69; both of which were published by TSR).

The same search updated for the 3.5 rule set returns two bullywug adventures; both also published in Dungeon Magazine.

It's not the search includes 5e titles that you begin to find any third party publishers

Yes, it is extremely unlikely that I would encounter any issues if I went ahead and published them anyway, my mind just does not allow me to assume that risk.

With that said, for this specific idea, I have no choice but to shift focus and publish it for 5e on the Dungeon Masters Guild website. (And, no, publishing a 1e variant won't be possible if/when I do commit to this route.)

So...

For now, I am going to table that particular idea, or work on it sparingly as inspiration strikes.



Instead, I've come up with a different plan.

---

Ultimately, I envision a product (or product line) that is a hybrid of:

1. The Dark of Hot Springs Island (and its extremely cool companion Field Guide).
   
   Here is the map of Hot Springs Island.

   ---

2. Hârn (which is just an island; a small part of a larger HârnWorld).
   
   Here is Hârn (upper left corner) against the larger backdrop of HârnWorld:
   

   Lythia.jpeg (328.16 KiB) Viewed 73 times

   I also really love the Atlas Hârnica maps that detail a region of Hârn, the island. The level of detail is just phenomenal!

---

So, an island.

Or a small continent.

Consisting of many, many hexes.

Each hex holding the potential of hosting a plethora of adventure!


I believe Todd (user thirdkingdom here on the forums) is doing something similar.


I may be wrong, but my understanding is he created a larger regional map of his campaign world -- Absalom -- and has a Populated Hexes Monthly product line where, each month he releases a separate individual products detailing a different hex within that world.

If so, that is a goldmine of an idea where there's nearly endless opportunities.


My focus will be the "limited" scope of a contained island, but a larger world (my version of Absalom) will exist beyond it should I ever exhaust all the space on the starting island.

Honestly, depending on its size, I may never escape the island as it could take literal years to detail each hex.


So, that is my plan.

With that, my first course of action is going to be to create the larger region map.

I'm undecided whether this initial map should be of the entire "world," or just the starting island?

Then, on the island, identify a region containing interesting geography.

Find a hex in that region.

Detail what exists in that hex.


Then repeat the process, detailing the neighboring hexes.



With the map being the first big step, I have spent the last few days exploring different hex mapping tools. While I haven't officially settled on one, I am strongly considering one of the following (both of which are confirmed to allow creations built using the tool to be included in commercial products):

• Worldographer (just purchased)
• Wonderdraft (owned for while, but never really used)

So, if I'm quiet on the updates here, it's almost certainly because I'm still dabbling with different mapping software tools and trying to figure out this first major step.


Then the fun begins!


However...


This forum was set up to playtest the adventure which, again, is being tabled for the foreseeable future (and will eventually be written and designed for a different rule set than advertised).

As a result, I am probably going to be removing this forum from the list of active games in the very near future.

Instead, as I begin populating hexes for this much larger project idea I've settled on, I will likely create a new forum where different adventures/scenarios can be playtested once they're ready (and not before).

I will figure all of that out at a later time.

[Leitz]

I find humans to be the worst monsters possible, and in the game too.

Give this a read, you'll find it interesting. The key point is to publish more than just maps; add world flavor, prices, legends, etc. By broadening your topic list you're increasing the size of your market. Anyone can do a random map, but coming up with legends, heroic tales of ages gone by, chivalric orders, etc, lets you capture the interest of a broader customer base.

[dmw71]

I find humans to be the worst monsters possible, and in the game too.

Same.

Give this a read, you'll find it interesting.

I'm familiar with Encyclopedia Hârnica; though, I didn't learn of it until recently, and well past when it was actually being published.

The key point is to publish more than just maps; add world flavor, prices, legends, etc. By broadening your topic list you're increasing the size of your market. Anyone can do a random map, but coming up with legends, heroic tales of ages gone by, chivalric orders, etc, lets you capture the interest of a broader customer base.

No, absolutely! That was very much my plan.

Create a larger regional hex map.
Detail each of the hexes.

The map, while important and required first, is actually secondary in importance to the actual content created for each hex.


There is still a lot to decide.

Do I approach this as more of a world building exercise to start? Where I create the map, then populate it?

Or, do I create the map and populate the world one hex at a time?


I think it will be somewhat important to have some big picture details in mind, but the "one hex at a time" approach will obviously make it easier to start.


I know Todd (thirdkingdom) has some rules for populating hexes, and I can certainly look into how he resolves stocking them, but I may want to also come up with my own approach.

I can see generating a LARGE set of random tables to help populate each hex.

Maybe I could even use this opportunity to learn programming? I could see each hex being procedurally generated after the random tables have been produced.


One of the things I really like about the material produced for Hârn is how detailed it is. If there is a castle found in a particular hex, they have a supplement to detail that castle. Maps and floorplans. Who would be working there? What industries do workers specialize in there? Etc...


That's part of the strategy I still need to figure out.

How detailed should each hex be?


Assuming a six mile hex (which I understand is a popular measurement), how much "stuff" can/should be located within it?


Sticking with the six mile hex, and assuming settlements were roughly 20 miles apart, that would leave one settlement per three/four hexes.

How does terrain affect this?

My brother just texted me and shared the following suggestion, which makes a lot of sense:

I would recommend a mix of set encounters and random. Basically like a dungeon.

Maybe this is the Hârn influence talking, but a bigger question could be: Are there even monsters on this island?

Probably. This is D&D we're talking about here...

Or, is it?

I can envision this easily being developed as a more generic or system-neutral product that could be used in any fantasy-esque RPG.


Lots to think about.

[Rex]

First a couple of comments on Harn.

It is still being published/supported by 2 different companies and a fair amount of free fannon as well. If you ever want to ask me any Harn related questions feel free and I will do my best. I am somewhat disorganized but I own everything Columbia games has ever published for Harn and HarnMaster all the way back to the very beginning. Hard copies not PDFs, but I do have some stuff on PDF too. I also own most of Kelestia games stuff too. I am a member of HarnQuest so when something new comes out they just ship it to me.

Harn's hexes are 5 leagues or 12.5 miles across. This is on both the large scale and Atlas Harnica (Topo) maps. The large scale maps linear scale is 1cm = 5 leagues (12.5 miles) and the Atlas Harnica maps are 1cm to a league (2.5 miles scale). To me the hexes are not as important as the linear scale but that may just be me. I competed in Orienteering in college so I know how to use a map in real world applications, and that means linear scale not hexes. Gamers seem to love hexes so if you plan on selling it I suspect you are stuck with them. Note that the large scale maps also index off a letter/number grid for finding things instead of numbering hexes, this is also faster and easier to follow, but from my perspective you need to do one or the other. The grid is a simplified Lat/Lon. system and thus I prefer it but you need some way to index where things are.

I think the best place to start is actually to think about what type era, fantasy type, etc. you want to make. My most recent project is Greek inspired so late bronze early iron age, medium magic with very active gods. Once you have that you can start asking yourself questions like why is it late bronze age early iron age? Same reasons as earth history or is there another reason? That sort of thing. Once you have done that then maybe start with a very simple world map. Is it involve lots of sea or none at all? Climate? etc. Try to approach it from a logical stand point, at least at first, then you will have a basis for building your tables to populate your hexes that actually makes sense.

[Leitz]

At WorldBuilding Con in March, a couple of speakers talked about drawing out the map first, and then thinking through how civilization developed based on geography. Which leads to geology, meteorology, zoology, botany, sociology, and so on.

https://www.youtube.com/@WorldAnvilPodcast
https://worldbuildingcon.com/

While I like the idea of a big map, I tend to avoid making them in detail. I have a finite amount of creative energy. Remember the game where you played Thokk? The initial setting and first bit of the dungeon was based on an adventure I actually did several years ago. I used to scuba dive (mixed gas, cave) and connected with a sump diving expedition into a semi-local cavern. Sump diving is a mix of advanced cave diving and spelunking; you are literally going were no one has gone before. I was just a beginner, so I hauled the gear as far as I could into the cave, and then waited for them to return. That gave me a lot of time to get the feel for being in that cavern, and I used that in game descriptions. Since the game didn't need details on anything else, I didn't have to create it.

If you really want a big map, create it artistically. Don't let dice determine things, those little bits of plastic don't have nearly the amount of interesting joy your brain does. They don't have any investment, either. Do the big map in less detail, then narrow in and dream about how geography, weather, flora and fauna would influence human (or whatever) development in the area.

[dmw71]

I own everything Columbia games has ever published for Harn and HarnMaster all the way back to the very beginning. Hard copies not PDFs, but I do have some stuff on PDF too. I also own most of Kelestia games stuff too. I am a member of HarnQuest so when something new comes out they just ship it to me.

I joined HarnQuest for the half-off PDFs... I picked up over 130 titles and 34 of the Atlas Harnica maps over the month or two I subscribed. Which, I admit, was kind of insane considering I've still never actually played the game.

To date, I've only read (about half) of the HarnWorld rulebook, and I think it's awesome! It's almost like a lesson on medieval history.

Harn's hexes are 5 leagues or 12.5 miles across. This is on both the large scale and Atlas Harnica (Topo) maps. The large scale maps linear scale is 1cm = 5 leagues (12.5 miles) and the Atlas Harnica maps are 1cm to a league (2.5 miles scale).

This is helpful, thanks. I will definitely need to give some thought to map scale.

I think the best place to start is actually to think about what type era, fantasy type, etc. you want to make.

I feel like this depends.

I'm having second thoughts on this project as a whole (more on this in a sec...), but, if the goal is to write a more neutral setting that could widely be used by any game master regardless of system or edition, forcing decisions like this (e.g. armor and weapons are limited to what was available in the Bronze Age) might not be the best course of action.

---

So, about this whole project... yes, I'm having second thoughts.

It is very ambitious.

And considering I've never (ever) written anything for publication (and was struggling with writing a single module), who am I kidding when I think I can populate an entire island?

This is realistically more like a dream project. Probably my best course of action will be to complete the initial adventure idea I created this forum for, even if it is for 5e.

Work through the entire process:

Coming up with the concept and taking all the steps necessary to transfer that idea to the page:

Maps.
Illustrations.
Encounter details.
NPCs.
Treasure.
Random tables.
Rumors.
Layout and presentation.
Editing.
Playtesting.
Revising.


The above list of tasks is daunting for even a single idea!

I fear my ambition exceeds my grasp in this case -- at least for now, while I'm still completely unproven -- so it is this island-building project that will be tabled while I resume work on the bullywug adventure.

For 5e.


Eventually, though...

[Leitz]

You can get stuff published; you have the brains, the experience, and the want-to.

Get back to your module. Do something small and get it published. That will change your brain chemistry, you will have done what you have never done before. Then go do it again and again.

[dmw71]

Thanks.

I hate feeling so scattered, and I’m not thrilled by my findings of being locked into 5e, but I totally agree it’s the correct course of action.

I ran need to finish what I’ve started.

That said, I can guarantee that I’ll be thinking of the island project in the background — probably constantly.

[Leitz]

Why are you locked into 5e? I mean, if you like 5e, then don't worry about it. If you prefer something else, what stops you from switching?

The siren song of "totally generic" settings is more fantasy than sexy dwarves and polite elves. Pick what you are most passionate about and make no excuses! Even if your ideal is so rare that only one person in a million likes it, there are what, eight billion on the planet? That's a good market.

[dmw71]

Why are you locked into 5e?

For the bullywug idea, because of copyright/IP restrictions.

The only way I can legally publish anything using the bullywug or froghemoth is by doing so on the Dungeon Masters Guild, which gives you access to all 5e material (and not just limiting you to what is contained in the SRD).


I detailed it here:

Update:
I have wasted spent many hours researching the legality of publishing content using the bullywug and/or froghemoth.

Because neither are included in the 'Systems Reference Document (SRD)' (neither the Creative Commons (CC-BY-4.0) or the OGL 1.0a version), the only way to do legally do it will be to publish the adventure on the Dungeon Masters Guild which operates under its own license:

Can I use creatures like the beholder and mind flayer, which the OGL lists as “product identity,” in my DMsGuild title?
Yes. Product identity exclusions apply only to publishing under the OGL. Product identity has no meaning under the DMsGuild program. Throw in a beholder, make it two!

A search on the Adventure Lookup website for "bullywug" and the AD&D ruleset returns seven results, with five being TSR-published modules and the remaining two appearing in Dungeon Magazine (Issues 22 and 69; both of which were published by TSR).

The same search updated for the 3.5 rule set returns two bullywug adventures; both also published in Dungeon Magazine.

It's not the search includes 5e titles that you begin to find any third party publishers

Yes, it is extremely unlikely that I would encounter any issues if I went ahead and published them anyway, my mind just does not allow me to assume that risk.

With that said, for this specific idea, I have no choice but to shift focus and publish it for 5e on the Dungeon Masters Guild website. (And, no, publishing a 1e variant won't be possible if/when I do commit to this route.)

So...

[Leitz]

Maybe a dumb question, but can you create your own monster that gives you whatever you need for the adventure?

[dmw71]

Maybe a dumb question, but can you create your own monster that gives you whatever you need for the adventure?

I could (though, not without (extremely minimal) risk). And that was my initial plan.

The "problem" that I was struggling with was: Introducing the adventure.

The primary antagonist are the bullywugs... yet, I can't refer to them as that. Sure, people might be able to draw the correlation between Bullywugs and Frogmen (or whatever), but it was never going to be a certainty.

The bigger problem was with the Froghemoth.

Describing a frog like-humanoid as a Frogman makes sense. And it's a generic enough creature where you're not at risk of infringing upon IP.

How the heck to you describe a Froghemoth?

And if you do somehow manage to create a "generic" Froghemoth and give this clone a new name, but it's close enough to such a unique creature that players in the know will understand what it is, that is technically infringement.

I'm certain creators do it all the time.

And I mentioned just slapping a new name on a creature as a possible workaround myself, but it's not right.

And, while the changes are extremely slim, it is possible that the work catches the attention of the "wrong" person and... lawsuit, or cease and desist.

Either way, I really don't want to risk needing to pull a title (my first title, no less) over a single mistake.


It's easier, and probably better (official is better than generic; even if the same), to just go the 5e route.

And while it won't be possible to publish a 1e equivalent of the same title for sale after it's been posted on Dungeon Masters Guild, there's nothing from creating the equivalent and playing it here on the forums, or at a local table/convention.

[Rex]

I would think first and foremost focus on doing something you will enjoy. All else will fall into place.

[Leitz]

I would think first and foremost focus on doing something you will enjoy. All else will fall into place.

Very much so, since the first few dozen revisions will make the idea a lot less fresh. Doing what you enjoy helps keep you going long after the newness has worn off.

[Edeldhur]

My single suggestions would be to start small, and get cracking on something. Sometimes it is easy to get lost/discouraged in/by the big picture/considerations, and never actually getting to start anything. I know that happens to me a ton.

Starting small is a way to get the ball rolling, motivating yourself, and having attainable goals you can succeed at.

Two cents from a grade A procrastinator

[Rex]

I am not sure of my grade as a procrastinator, but I certainly struggle sometimes getting started on things that are "not required". Once going I am a machine but that initial start is the toughest part for me.