Session 0: Character Creation

[C. Steven Ross]

No you can't change anything mid-session.

If your character genuinely has experiences during the course of play that change his outlook on life, change his beliefs and whatnot, he is stepping down the path of the Heroes journey and growing as a character. When this works out well, it's a beautiful thing to see occur organically within play and rules as written.

Also what you are suggesting is very much different from the intended tone of Torchbearer. Read the intro chapters. This is a game about being an amoral, homeless vagabond who struggles constantly against a world that isn't meant for him. If that description doesn't fit your character by the end of the first session, either you haven't done much in the game or I'm doing a poor job as DM.

[Marullus]

Also what you are suggesting is very much different from the intended tone of Torchbearer. Read the intro chapters. This is a game about being an amoral, homeless vagabond who struggles constantly against a world that isn't meant for him. If that description doesn't fit your character by the end of the first session, either you haven't done much in the game or I'm doing a poor job as DM.

Oh dear. Let's clarify and rectify that, then. I am trying to fit in and didn't mean that.

You asked this question in PM and I thought my response satisfied it because we didn't continue.

That's easy, as a matter of perspective. Loosely playing like the Templars, his order is evangelistic, mendicant, forbidden from building personal wealth, and holds faith in the providence of the Gods. So, once the fighting is done in the Reaches, he is duty bound to move on in search of a new battle. Acquired treasure is the providence of the God's favor and naturally expected to support him, be expended in the course of his good work, or donated to the temple.

To normal society he is a murderhobo, to his own eyes he is serving a noble mendicant calling for the Lord of Light because darkness never sleeps.

I figured having a belief system incongruous with reality was both fun and rife for his beliefs causing trouble.

This is already exacerbated in play by Garen's class warfare style responses, so I just started playing it up to serve as literary foil for him in our story... It reminded me of a comedian who was making fun of white people camping... So rich they have to out and pretend to be poor. I thought trying to bond with Garen over his vow of poverty would be similarly fun to watch.

I am NOT wed to this. If it is against the feel for the game or campaign I am totally willing to recant. He can be rejected and cast out over politics and struggling in his ostracism. That is cool, too. Just let me know and I can redact my last post.

[C. Steven Ross]

Yeah I think the biggest thing is the loot issue. Loot is the ENTIRE reason you are out here. If you could make money in a legitimate fashion you would. Your characters should all be so destitute, for whatever reasons, that grave robbing is the only means they can support themselves.

[Rusty Tincanne]

Ninja'd, but i will post this anyways:


It seems an interesting character to play, whether truly wealthy or someone who has cast aside privilege. Said character would be out of step with all of society either way because he would have social graces and a world view entirely out of step with the peasants they are trying to cohabitate with. Even if someone found him interesting, there would always be a rift in ability to connect. Definitely an outcast, and it seems like, over time, Ulrich specifically, would need to start questioning his vow to give everything in excess to the church - either because he doesn't ever connect with the people he is protecting or because he realizes the Imperial Church isn't really benefitting the poor.

Or he could just be a schizophrenic that thinks he has a holy chore to do... Joan of Arc didn't really fit in well either.

Back to Steven's point, I have questioned TB having paladins at all for that reason. They are meant to be heroes. I'm interested in the final decision you two arrive at.

[thesniperknight1]

I agree with rusty, i really enjoy Ulrich character and background but I see how it doesn't fit with TB "scum of society" character image.

This is just a suggestion but how about instead of a vow of poverty, his privileges were all taken from him because he refused to go against his beliefs, granted this might change the character somewhat and its motivation but it will fit TB's parameters. This is simply a suggestion though

[Marullus]

Okay, lets talk loot.

Mechanically, I didn't see it as much different. I expected that most treasure would be expended in maintenance, thus the phrases "expected to support him, [or] be expended in the course of his good work." In the event that we DO acquire superfluous income at levels we can't carry with us for use, the game already supports donating it to churches.

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I saw that in his hometown, but a version of it appears in several others, too.

The difference I saw was in viewpoint. He isn't robbing graves to stay alive, he's reaping the awards of providence for doing good deeds. (He isn't stealing, God intended it for him.)

...and yeah, with the base premise, Paladins really do present a conundrum.

If that isn't satisfactory, then I'll retool to make him gritty, hardbitten, cast out for politics but still loyal to the principals. (Like Eomer in the Two Towers, when Grima Wornmtongue exiles him.)

[Enoch]

I think a paladin is a neat character as long as their morality can be somewhat flexible--we can't afford one person seriously balking when we go to make money. This is not a system that rewards intraparty conflict--we pull together or we die together.

Norgrim didn't rescue Rand's boots because he's a nice guy; he did it because it's the middle of winter and he realized having your cleric's feet freeze to the cave floor is a death sentence for everybody.

[Rusty Tincanne]

...or we die together.

Duuuude! Quit giving Steven ideas!!!

As to a "vow of poverty," Rand has something similar going for him - some sort of tithe or whatnot (haven't really figured it out, though one idea was to purchase children to give to his order to make more clerics from). He is fully understanding that the portion he gets to do that with is purely from his own share though.

[Marullus]

Loot is the ENTIRE reason you are out here.

Yeah, I under-appreciated that (Torchbearer newb). I expected deeds-motivated characters in a good-vs-evil scenario. Now that I'm seeing more of the world, I see we're even more extreme... we've dropped Law/Chaos for cultural relativism (Imperial/Nord), not to mention I'm the only one in the group that has an alignment. I've also learned that even Orcs aren't evil in Skyrim, and we have Hobgoblin Paladins. There IS no good-evil scenario, no evil races, and that is what has caught me off-guard most. I am still struggling with that with the Paladin. It means he's basically Pro-Human-Imperium?

I can easily retool to have him be Pro-Imperium. He fights the forces of Hell because they are clear opponents of the Imperium. He had some status to become a knight, but lost it due to machevellian politics (refused to break his morals to play the game) and so is murderhobo graverobbing to get the money to reclaim his birthright the old fashioned way... by the sword.

Steven? Final ruling? Just tell me what to do.

[C. Steven Ross]

Enoch has this game down PAT!

[Marullus]

Okay, then. Easy enough. This it is.

I can easily retool to have him be Pro-Imperium. He fights the forces of Hell because they are clear opponents of the Imperium. He had some status to become a knight, but lost it due to machevellian politics (refused to break his morals to play the game) and so is murderhobo graverobbing to get the money to reclaim his birthright the old fashioned way... by the sword.